Discussion on Women's Hour about harrassment on the streets

Hello,

Hope I'm ok commenting, being a man and everything.

In my own experience (which is all I have of course ) men HATE these wankers, gropers and perverts. Not as much as women, obviously, because we aren't affected directly, and of course we don't see it, so it isn't in our daily consciousness.

It's absolutely fucking awful that women can't go about their daily business without being bothered. There isn't any excuse either. I've spend my entire life with those lively male hormones (they came with the body) and somehow never managed to hassle or abuse a women in the street. You know, because I'm not a wanker.

If people don't intervene, its because we've seen the look in the eye of the perpetrator. Men have a good vibe for which other men are mad or dangerous, because they could attack us physically. If they don't intervene, it is because they are scared and mortified. However, they should. It's the right thing to do. If I ever witnessed it I would hope I had the courage to intervene.

Yes it is.

Feedback is possibly an option?

I hadn't really thought of it like that dittany. I just assumed that they don't often get a lot of men ringing in, and this had really got them calling.

God it's not racist to make an observation. Not like you're saying "all muslims" do it, which would obviously be wrong. In India I found that the kissy noises stuff happened everywhere, but I have never been so harrassed as next to the Jama Masjid in Delhi. I was modestly dressed (long top, trousers, shawl covering head and shoulders) and with an older my-mum-aged lady. But we were literally surrounded by men and boys with cameras clustering in and trying to photograph me, touch me etc. We just turned tail and got OUT of there. I suppose if there are used to seeing women much more covered up, I was practically naked to them. But that's making an excuse really when I'm sure that loads and loads of Muslim men from the same background would think they were behaving like twats.

Glad to hear others are appalled at what I and friends of mine experienced in Brussels. I have told people in RL (both male and female) and often get the reaction 'oh it can't have been that bad'. Women often react worst and seem to think I'm exaggerating or making a fuss or even being racist if I mention that all of the men doing the harrassing were of Arab / North African extraction.

When I say all I really do mean all too - I never experienced harrassment from European men or any of the many Conogolese or Senegalese immigrants either. The African (sub-Saharan, I mean) quarter of Brussels was actually quite nice and chilled out to walk through compared to going to the Arab / North African areas where the few women around were dressed in black chadors and hijabs and young men were always hanging about the streets in groups.

I assumed it was a cultural problem where, in their Muslim culture, a woman walking around in public was not normal or acceptable. Most of them were young enough to not be first-generation immigrants, spoke good French etc so they knew that Europe has different norms with regard to women's freedom. Street harrassing of women was a way of asserting their own cultural norms and showing defiance against European culture. In that sense, I felt very much like I was being targeted on the frontline of some culture war that was alien to me. It also made me aware of the reality that street harrassment is not just some guy shouting 'nice legs' but can be about power and deeper social issues.

AvrilHeytch, your friend's advice is interesting about dying your hair black to go to Guatemala. There does seem to be an element of targeting lighter-haired women too in countries with major street harrassment problems. I don't know if it's just because we stand out in countries where almost everyone is dark-haired or if there is some actual racist element involving assumptions about women with a Northern European background.

Oh ok got it - around 30 mins in.

Love the man saying it's not acceptable for women nowadays to still have to be fighting the battle of the 1970s.

lolsob @ Wankermap.

What sort of time was that Amy?

Did anyone hear the followup to this discussion on today's women's hour? They had a selection of comments from men who had rung up to complain about Brendan O'Neill. It was quite heartening I felt.

I have been harassed all over the UK since I was a teenager (no worse in London). I used to work in a cafe when I was 16 and had to walk through an industrial estate to get there so was constantly shouted at by lorry drivers. I am under 5 foot tall and have always looked much younger than I am, so I must have looked about 12 at the time.

It is the fact that you don't know what will come after the comments that is the worst thing. It also annoys me that the emphasis in the media always seems to be for women to ignore it, not for men to stop doing it.

And for the record, I have seen a man wanking in public. I was trying to go for a nice walk but had to turn back as I couldn't carry on by myself in a quiet spot knowing he was there behind me, maybe following, maybe not.

It is brilliant that the LASH campaign is getting so much publicity, and for projects like the Wankermap and the excellent Welsh Govt film. Collating all these stories helps makes the point that this harassment is an everyday occurance rather than separate incidents, with a regular threat of violence behind them.

I found Italy ok, but come to think of it could have been cos I was DP glued to my side the whole time. Can't beat India for this IMO, but to be fair there is a fair amount of shouting going on about other things (selling etc) so it fades in a bit more. What I hate there is the gangs of men making kissy noises at you .

In fact, I developed a special technique to put them off if anyone wants to hear it.

Well done Inmyprime, I can imagine what that must of been like, I spent a couple of months working in Belgium, in Liege, the harassment there was really frightening, we must act now to prevent the UK being like this.

Blimey InMyPrime. Looks like we get off lightly here!

Anyone found the programme on iPlayer? Was in bed by 9pm last night (thanks to my ever-wakeful children).

That sounds bloody awful InMyPrime, your poor friends as well.

Do these blokes never let it occur to them that their opinion on our faces/bodies/clothing is just not of interest?

damn it just wrote a giant post and lost it.

Anyway, was just saying well done really. And it was good that there was a consensus all the way through (starting with you framing it so clearly at the start) that verbal harrassment was unacceptable. The only question was whether whistling was just as bad. I think you got the reality of the situation over and stuck to your guns brilliantly.

What next?

I have to say that I find the culture in the UK does not generally support street harassment (although London sounds like an exception judging by some posters' experiences). I've had very few experiences of street abuse since being here.

When I lived in Brussels, the street harassment issue was a daily concern. It was literally impossible to go outside of your door in that city without being harassed (as a woman - men were oblivious to the problem). It didn't matter if you were on your way to work in a suit in the morning or out in the evening with friends - the men were always there, hanging around in doorways, shouting at any woman who went past. It was a huge issue for all of us women were living there as part of programme working at an international institution. We talked about it all the time.

I had friends who were kerb-crawled, abducted in cars (she managed to escape) sexually harassed, groped etc. One woman on our programme was abducted and raped. The response of the people running the programme was to remind us all that we needed to be cautious about where we went(!!).

I regularly was shouted at on the street but my French wasn't good enough to think up witty replies so I would just tell them to 'fuck off' or give them the universal one-fingered salute. They seemed puzzled by my reaction to their 'compliments'. Apparently in French culture (according to French friends), this kind of public abuse is viewed as a compliment! On one occasion I was spat on - I was sitting on a bus waiting for it to depart when some guy came up to the window outside and started leering at me and making kissing motions. I gave him the finger. He then got on the bus and spat on me(!). Could have been worse I guess. Another time, a group of friends and I were walking to a bar in a slightly sketchy area and these two little runts came up trying to grope my friend and isolate her from the group. I went into a completely blind rage and grabbed one of the little chaps by the shirt collar, as if to lift him off the ground, shook him and told him to get the fuck out of there or I'd kick his head in . Looking back, that was slightly foolhardy as he could have had a knife and I hasten to add that I am of a slight build so my threat was pretty empty(!) but I was in a blind rage and I kind of sensed he was just a little twit anyway.

It would be great if the threat of violence from a woman weren't so empty and these men could be genuinely scared into stopping their behaviour. After all, they would never go up to a guy in a bar and grope his bum or ask him to give them a blow job because they'd be scared of the violence they'd get in retaliation.

Anyway, great to see that people are out there fighting against this and keeping up awareness. I loved that woman's website, linked to above, where she listed the wankers she'd encountered while cycling, took photos of them etc. This is the best way to get at these guys - have a policy of zero tolerance and name and shame the losers.

Thanks for listening! Tried to take some of your advice on board.

Not sure of the ages of everyone on here but presume it's women of all ages not just twenties, which is why I directed that guy to Mumsnet! Tired now...

Vicky x