Porn

I totally agree with you Carmen that lots of things are horrible - not just porn.

I don't think one justifies the other however and I think there are lots of things we can do about it. If we just shrug our shoulders and accept the abuses that happen in porn as some sort of inevitability then we will never get anywhere.

Blinks how about you tell us what the holes in our arguments are rather than just declaring there are holes.

Personally I have similar objections to porn mags and lads mags as I do to filmed porn. I have already discussed my experience with and objections to amateur porn. I think a lot of gay porn has a theme of submission and domination that replicates hetero porn so I object to that too. All the stuff we have said about desensitisation/attitudes towards sexual identity/expectations of a partner apply to gay porn too.

Can you define what you mean by erotica - it means different things to different people?

"and to imply that if you're not against porn per se, you must therefore support the rape and torture of women is dense. to the max."

Why?

I am against porn because terrible things happen to women in the making of porn.

Logically people who are not against porn are either ambivalent about what happens to these woman, don't care about what happens to them, are ignorant of what happens to them or are titillated by what happens to them.

I don't see how you can be against rape and misogyny and be pro porn - they go hand in hand. (I also don't see how you can be against racism and be pro porn - racist stereotypes are rife in porn).

An inconvenient fact for many people, I know. And one they often choose to ignore in their self indulgent pursuit of titillation and orgasm.

there are so many holes in the hardcore anti-porn arguments here you could strain pasta in em.

what about erotica? what about gay porn? what about amateur porn? what about porn mags and lads mags?

are all the people involved in these rapist misogynists too? even the females?

and to imply that if you're not against porn per se, you must therefore support the rape and torture of women is dense. to the max.

I live in America. I find ninety nine percent of what's on television gross. Pharmaceutical adverts for drugs people don't need. Airbrushed women with improbable figures, endless crime dramas with sexy female victims (special victims unit ffs), dumb comedies where the father is always right, reality tv shows offering false dreams, 'news' programs which sensationalise crime and illness (this woman's aneurism is a ticking time bomb, watch tonight on 'when things explode in your head!') etc. etc.

Porn is part of it. But all these images are offensive, distorted versions of reality. I fully acknowledge that but don't see what you can do about it. I don't want to watch so I turn the tv off.

Maybe they damage society but all you can do is vote with your remote control and encourage others to do likewise.

In the same way, I think that extreme porn, extreme violence, extreme horror, extremely disturbing images etc. are a war against the population, a war against society, and that is why decent societies have obscenity laws and try to limit these harmful images. There is a battle in society between thise who want a free-for-all type freedom of expression and those who want censorship. A balance has to be struck.

Claig that is disgusting.

Ok - another reason to hate porn it is a fucking weapon of war.

The crazy thing is that most porn doesn't even attempt to hide the woman hating element - quite the contrary in fact.

I just looked at Ben Dover's homepage and at the top there is an advert for 'teens' being 'violated' for example.

The blurb for most porn is blatantly misogynistic - all the better to entice consumers to watch it.

The porn makers make no attempt to hide the fact that porn is filmed degradation and abuse.

Weirdly there still seem to be lots of people who will jump to defend porn in ways that the porn makers themselves don't even bother with.

found a reference to it
www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00996.html

That is terrible claig, I didn't know that.

there have been news reports that the Israelis have in the past jammed Palestinian TV stations and broadcast hard-core porn. But they are not the only ones. I can't remember if it was also done against the Serbs.

And yes, 'they' destroy much more than women, arguably even themselves

Can I just pick Carmen up on her comparison of Porn barons to "sales managers". Please.

His name is Ben Dover !

Sorry

"Claig, I don't even know why you are arguing it."

I don't think it is as black and white as saying that they want to destroy women. I have seen a documentary about the porn director Ben Dover. I don't think he wants to destroy women. I think that they have other motives, which are worth trying to understand.

What, really? A weapon of war

"I can't see who gets anything out of it. I don't think even the money argument for those at the top ultimately explains it fully."

porn is sometimes used as a weapon of war. It is broadcast into the homes of the enemy. It takes over their normal viewing. This gives an insight into one of its real goals. It is used to insult and taunt the enemy, to break their moral fibre, to destroy the bonds of decency that hold their society together and to demoralise the population.