Do you think that men are oppressed?

Yeah but ElephantsandMiasmas there are poorly paid women doing crappy jobs but there are also many priviledged housewives that have nannies, cleaners etc and just have to go to the salon etc and not have any stresses. (Nothing wrong with either way of life but obviously huge disparities.

I dont bulk all women in together and say all women do x, y, z because I have met women that have awful lives and women that have had lovely, stresfree lives. I wont say I wont help women with DV as there are many women living priveledged existences because that is ridiculous. I think the same goes the other way round.

But no matter how many poorly paid and dangerous jobs men are doing, other men are doing the best paid, most rewarded and powerful jobs in the world. It's therefore ridiculous to say that that is an argument for men being oppressed. It's like saying white people are oppressed because lots of white people are in the army - yes but they're also running the country.

'"There is also the issue of hazardous professions (armed services, sewage maintenance, roofer etc)."

I read on the Skeptifem blog that the most dangerous job in America is prostitute. The death rate for prostitutes in the U.S. is 204 out of every 100,000. For fishermen, it's 129 out of every 100,000.'

Look at the miners in Chile that are stuck until Christmas something like that would never happen to a woman. Prostitutes on the street are usually women or girls that have experienced difficult lives and if it was legal and regulated it would stop this from happening as much imo. Up market call girls and lapdancers do it because they want to and the money but the lower end of this market the girls are often forced.

I am not saying that there arent many women that have hard and difficult lives but there are many men that do to. It is silly to say one group has a more difficult life than the other it depends on who you are and how you look at it. You can argue this until the cows come home but some men and women are very priviledged and some men and women are marginalised and suffer for what ever reason.

'"Women have a myriad of choices. They can simultaneously assume the role of the working parent (through part-time work and/or flexible hours) and carer."

Does any legislation prevent men doing this?'

How many women do you know that would want to work and let the man stay at home or go part time? I doubt there would be many, personally I have never met one. Its societal expectations not many women would go out with a man that wont work at all.

In response to TheShriekingHarpy,

"Women have a myriad of choices. They can simultaneously assume the role of the working parent (through part-time work and/or flexible hours) and carer."

Does any legislation prevent men doing this?

"womens hour (radio..although I recall hearing about "Men hour" which was only recently instigated Approximatelly 64 years after the equivalent Womens hour was introduced."

"The Locker Room" was a men's equivalent of "Woman's Hour" which ran for several years in the early to mid 1990s.

"There is also the issue of hazardous professions (armed services, sewage maintenance, roofer etc)."

I read on the Skeptifem blog that the most dangerous job in America is prostitute. The death rate for prostitutes in the U.S. is 204 out of every 100,000. For fishermen, it's 129 out of every 100,000.

TSH - read the thread, you will find that many of these things have already been discussed. As for the rest - I've been through all these things with you before. You repeatedly scrape up anything you can think of where men are worse off...it must be a real struggle.

'However I should stress that I also acknowledge that women endure prejudice, discrimination ad nauseam too. To reiterate previous posts, oppression, disparity or whatever you wish to call it, can affect anyone, irrespective of sex.'

I totally agree the shriekingharpy. I really dont see the point of arguing who has it worse. I have seen feminists and MRAS do it but really it doesnt help or get to the core of oppression. There are many factors, life experiences etc that can result in limited life chances. Every family that experiences DV means that the children can end up in care, mental health issues, seeing relationships and thinking how thats should be etc. It is important to spend the time working for people of both genders not just one or the other.

There are ways men are discriminated against and women are disciminated against and by pitting one against the other it creates a divisive situation and perpetuates the myth of genders being constantly against each other. I dont think its healthy particularly. Luckily in my own life it isnt something I really see and women and men treat people and their problems on an case by case basis.

Have read this thread and found it really interesting and thought-provoking - as I have found all threads in this section.

My answers to the OP:

a) both working men and working women are oppressed (socialist argument)

b) in both the working and the domestic spheres, it is not men (as a group) but women (as a group) who are oppressed (feminist argument)

Of course there are examples of individuals who do not fit into these categories. But those individual examples are just that: examples of a few individuals. They do not invalidate the basic premises that lie behind both statements.

A poster on the first page had it right: men might be repressed, or depressed, but, as the world is currently organised, they are not oppressed.

I agree with much of what Elephants has said on this thread. I also agree with much of what Dittany has said, particularly this: "There isn't a culture in the world where women aren't seen as secondary to men and where male interests don't generally prevail over those of women."

(By the way, I note that the OP referred to "girls", not women , and that she hasn't been back to the thread to give her point of view.)

That's really sad, sunny.

Also can I add he has never hit a woman and never would. Towards women if anything he is too accepting and eager to please. The reason he got sent down was because he had been previously done for cannabis possession and then later ecstacy/amphetaines. He went to his dads house as he had tried to be amicable to him but after a drunken night assaulted his father resulting in a charge of GBH. As he had previous offences he got 8 months but got off with 4. After that he carried on taking drugs/drink but has now trying to cut down and is responding to counselling. Talking about the past brings out a lot of mood swings in him and depressive behaviour hence the anti depressants.

Elephantsandmiasmas - The male I know about went to prison for defending his mum and attacking his father and it led to him being put inside. Not nice story or situation as it led to him finding prison really difficult came out when off the rails on drugs and alcohol. He is having counselling for low self esteem and has been involved in a relationship where the woman took advantage of his low ebb nearly resulting in complete mental breakdown. Doubt he will ever completely recover and will be on meds/counseling for life. It took him a long time to get help and he has been through a lot emotionally, finds it hard to trust etc. I hadnt really thought of this issue until I hmet his family a few years ago. DV can affect male and female children in a multitude of ways.

In my perfect world I would want to help both genders from any abuse or the fall out of DV, rather than argue who has it worse. Everyone is an individual and some can handle more than others. Everyone should have an equal right to help and support when they need it in my eyes, and I dont see the point in arguing.

dont concur with op,its not so cut & dried

I basically agree. It's tricky though because of course some men are oppressed - gay men in Uganda for example. But "men" as a group aren't oppressed. Whereas women, as a group, are. Some more than others but all at a basic level.

The op is an oxymoron

I agree with dittany re dv. It is ridiculous that organisations try to compare f to m dv with the disgrace that is our m to f dv situation.

Your example is interesting sunny but it seems to me that while both genders of children are "victims" in the sense that they have had a horrible upbringing, the son has become a victimiser as well - what was he in prison for? It's often said on here to women in abusive partnerships: "your DS will grow up to be just like his violent dad, and your DD will grow up thinking this is normal and end up with someone just like her violent dad." It seems to me that purely in terms of quality of life, chance of being murdered in own home etc, the son is actually not badly off in comparison to the daughter. Being raised to be abusive is unfair on the child, indeed, but being raised to tolerate abuse is far far worse.

sunny, I think there is much in what you say. I know from Al-Anon (the friends and family offshoot of Alcoholics Anonymous) that co-dependent type behaviours are seen in both men and women. In the Al-Anon groups I've attended the male:female ratio is typically around 40:60. And co-dependent behaviours often lead to people ending up as the victim in abusive relationships.

Co-dependency does often come from low self-esteem and, in particular, through behaviours they've seen modelled to them in childhood.

I think that rather than arguing who has it worse as a gender it would be better to look at the reasons behind why women and men end up with low self esteem that they end up getting with these abusers and staying with them.

Women might have it worse when it come to more cases of DV however there are many families that have experineced DV whee it effects both teh male and female chuldren and what they have seen manifests itselves in different ways later in these childrens lives. I think it is important tohave the communities and support for both genders who have been through situations like this.

I know male children who have seen their fathers do this and it is manifested in mental health issues for both genders. Both genders find it difficlt to trust, both experience anger and aggression and the male has previously ended up in prison for a short period. He has since turned his life around and both are having counselling. The victims of DV are not just the female or male members of teh couple but the next generation of males and females that have grew up within those types of families.

no dittany no twisting dont resort to hyperbole

Dittany, I've given up responding to you because you refuse to answer reasonable questions about what you're claiming. Instead you seem to have embarked on a muck-raking exercise to find anything you can to accuse men's groups as misogynistic and/or liars through guilt by association.

There's no point debating with you because you don't debate the issues, you just fling mud and hope some of it sticks.

Right ho! It's just confusing when you see people arguing and it doesn't make sense. But I will leave and let you both get on with it.