Do you think that men are oppressed?

I have read that when negotiating wages men are more likely to ask for more whilst women are less likely.

Boston Globe, June 13: "Study: Men Negotiate Better Pay"
I had a long interview with writer Kimberly Blanton. She wrote:

?A new study found that men routinely ask for more money than do women in salary negotiations. More than that, the study by a researcher at the University of California, Irvine, found that they two sexes take radically different tacks as they bargain.

?Lisa Barron, professor of organizational behavior at the university?s Graduate School of Management, studied students nearing completion of their MBAs, 21 men and 17 women. In mock job interviews, each student was offered a $61,000 salary by a manager for a fictitious company, Indostar. Right after the interviews, Barron asked the students, most of whom were engaged in real job searches of their own, to report on the Indostar negotiations. The findings were striking, albeit troubling for women: Men, responding to the salary offer, asked for $68,556, on average, while women requested $67,000 for the same job.

Later in the story, Blanton wrote: "Barron?s study found yawning gaps between the way men and women described themselves in negotiations, a time when salary is determined. Men apparently felt more entitled to earn more money, her research found. One male graduate told Barron, ?I?m not a typical entry [employee],? and another said, ?I?m not a standard student and I don?t think that I should be categorized in that same range of capability and therefore salary.?

?Female students said very different things, such as ?I am very similar to my peers.? Another said, ?As long as I?m making the average, that?s all I really care about??

?Barron said women felt uncomfortable even incapable of valuing themselves in dollars, while men did not. She also said men tended to try to prove themselves in the interview by citing experience and proven capabilities and that women said they would prove themselves on the job.?

My research on how women and men negotiate their salaries differently resulted in many stories in newspapers, radio and TV stations and on websites in the United States and abroad in 2003. It fascinates me how reporters see things differently, even though I answered their questions essentially the same! Here's a sample:

CBS Radio News, June 13
Other reporters in the Boston area read the story and did interviews, including Mike Epstein of CBS. Here is a sample of what he asked and how I answered.
Q: If women are getting lower salaries during negotiations, are they doing it wrong and men doing it right?
A: No, they are doing it differently. The onus is on recruiters to understand these differences.
Q: What should women do differently?
A: They should get accurate information on salaries, explain the worth of their skills, and keep a running record of accomplishments, rather than waiting a week

Well, I would agree, if it was phrased "If men wanted to try to effect change..."

Why don't they? Surely they are starting to now?

I think you are right that, although men in this position would have a problem with being laughed at for behaving against gender type", they probably would be listening to more than women are.

I used to work for a man who left early to watch his daughter play tennis nearly every week. If a woman was doing that it would be used against her in promotion decisions, I would bet on it. But in him it makes him a "great dad" and "balanced".

Feel like starting a "men can win whatever they do" thread in contrast to my other one...not sure I've got the energy for another ruck though.

I would like a sensible chat about why men don't campaign for flexible working though.

I agree with you Elephants. But my point is a little bit more than that - surely a man taking on "the fathers" would find it a little easier than a woman, because their sex would be in their favour. But they don't. Men don't campaign for flexible working conditions, paid parental leave or on-site nurseries. They just don't. Women have fought tooth and nail for legislative change, where have the men been? So while of course I have sympathy for the little men, I still stand by my statement. If men wanted to effect change so that they could spend time with their children, they would.

It happens a lot. I know many women who have found out that a man doing the same job as them gets paid more (cue Xenia talking about negotations etc). That's what the equal pay legislation is for, to allow women to take their employers to court if they have proof that they are being paid less. However until companies are made to publish either their wage breakdown or a calculation of the gender gap in their company, this is incredibly hard to do.

IME most bosses are still men, and it comes more naturally to them to start viewing younger men (little versions of them) as specialists/experts, and lead them to the benefits this involves. A woman may have to (and often does) actually go up and literally point out that since they are the one who handle 80% of task X work, it's unfair to highlight Steve as the "go-to man" for that task.

'I don't see wage disparities as gender oppression unless they are caused by gender eg you only ver minimum wage as you're a man and you get double that because you're female or vice versa'

How often does this happen though? I have worked with men nursery nurses and they get the same wage. Same as male cleaners, chambermaids, waiters, flyering jobs etc. I have never been paid less than a man to do any of those jobs. Everyone gets paid the same.

I don't see wage disparities as gender oppression unless they are caused by gender eg you only ver minimum wage as you're a man and you get double that because you're female or vice versa. Nor do I have a problem with pay gaps as I'm not a socialist (unless they are caused by gender issues -there's an article in this month's Tatler where a father argues he will send his son to Eton and his daughter to a comp because the son will work and the girl will just marry, that's obviously unfair and discriminatory on gender grounds).

I agree with Elephants that globally women are oppressed as a group. However again it is the elite and priviledged men that are responsible generally not the average man.

I think what we can all agree on is that whether (some) men are oppressed or not, it sure as hell isn't women doing the oppressing, it's other men. So for logic's sake you can't say "men are oppressed", because while some men maybe are by capitalism, racism etc, others aren't, so it's not really because of being men. Also, while other forces than sexism - capitalism, racism, ableism etc - can have a negative impact on men, women in the same groups (lower income, non-white, disabled) have the double whammy, dealing with those issues on top of sexism. This is why the vast majority of the world's poor are women, the vast majority.

'That's what the patriarchy is, in my understanding - rule of the fathers, not rule of men. It's the older, richer men who are in charge, it's not sunny's DH or tortoise''

Exactly I doubt many hard working family men who go to work everyday for their family do overtime, difficult physical tasks etc would appreciate you telling them that if they wanted to change things then they could. Most men are not in positions of power, everyone cant be in power so there are more not in power.

My husband does a physical warehousing job does loads of household task and babysits one night every weekend so I can go out. He did loads of night feeds when she was born etc. I get annoyed when some women make out all men are oppressing them. Its ridiculous there are 1000s of men out there like my husband, and I have the pleasure of knowing many of them.

It's true - if men "as a group" wanted these things to change, they would. But as we know, it's rare that everyone in one sex wants the same things (apart from access to internet porn and tit-mags in the shops apparently, but that's another thread). If you're talking about consensus you'd be more sensible to consult a horoscope and say "all Scorpios want X", at least that's only one twelfth of the population instead of half.

tortoise - that isn't especially directed at you, just that I get annoyed when people generalise about "what men/women want". And what has this thread been about if not looking at the ways in which some men keep other men (as well as women) down.

That's what the patriarchy is, in my understanding - rule of the fathers, not rule of men. It's the older, richer men who are in charge, it's not sunny's DH or tortoise's. And I think it's probably true that if those men wanted things to change WRT childcare etc, they would. But these are the kind of blokes who are largely jetting off round the world shagging young women and giving nary a thought to their own offspring. In the male hierarchy they see themselves as the alphas (because money is their religion) and probably look down on men who want to actually spend time with their children. These men are being raised in largely all-male schools (still), and brought up (in the phrase of one friend who went to a school like this) to be "little kings of the universe".

Xenia - There are plenty of lower wage workers that do a valuabel job. Its not just men or women that are in these roles. I dont see how it is a feminist issue that women are in low paid 'dull' jobs but it isnt an issue for men.

Also I work with children and it is anything but dull it is fulfilling and interesting. My husband is a volunteer youth worker and when he qualifies he will be on a low wage but he will be fulfilled by it. Lots of people find working with people rewading such as working with the learning disabled, carers for older peple and children etc. It is not 'mindless' it is fulfilling and rewarding. I dont see success or 'you made it good' by how much you are paid but rather what you do and how you live your life. It doesnt make you a better person if you get paid a lot.

There's always been the debate in feminism between solcialists and capitalists. I don't think wage disparity between men and women who make it good and those who don't is a feminist issue or even an oppression issue. They just failed or weren't much good or were unlucky -that's life.

What is an issue for feminism is unfairness caused purely by gender. There most of the disadvantage has been to women and indeed most women with money and power always have subcontracted out dull chidl and domestic stuff to others. Most women choose to work and plenty woudl rather work than do mindless childcare same as most men.

My husband makes £6.50 an hour and a £500 bonus a year so couldnt really take a paycut. He has had mny retail assistant managers job and he was only getting £5.80 for those and they were for the big name stores I doubt you understand.

I live in a place where 45% of the population are n minimum wage so I think he is lucky to make £6.50 that is why he couldnt afford to leave and get another job this time as he wouldnt get a job as well paid as the one he is in at the moment.

I dont know anyone in a position of power all the men I know work their socks off for their families and dont get much money for it. There are more men are hardworking in difficult jobs doing that than in positions of power. You are talking about the elite and priviledged men very big difference.

Oh, absolutely, I'm being flippant to some extent. My husband had to take a massive paycut and move from a male-dominated industry (mining) in order to work a family-friendly job.

Men are hurt by the patriarchal expectations of society as well. But I don't have a lot of sympathy for the view that they have it harder (which I know is not what you said) when they hold the vast majority of positions of power.

I mean, if I need to ask my boss for flexible working conditions, I'm asking a man. If I'm campaigning for paid parental leave, I'm campaigning male politicians. If I'm taking my (male) employer to court for breaching their requirement for a safe workplace (legislated by men) I'm in front of a male judge. It is men, at every step of the journey, who have the power to decide if I can work for a living and spend time with my child.

So let me rephrase: if the majority
of men wanted to spend time with their children, they'd be ablt to.

'But, luckily for men, they run society, so if they feel a bit put out that they don't get paid parental leave (eg), guess what, they can write that into the legislature.

The only reason men don't get to combine working and being with their children is that they don't want to.'

Lol last time I checked the average man didnt run society. My husband quit his job when our first was born for 4 months to help me (He was a student so we just lived on student loan). I doubt he will be able to do that next time so thats really upsetting for him. His 2 best friends when on benefits so they could be with their new babies and it shouldnt have to be like that.

But, luckily for men, they run society, so if they feel a bit put out that they don't get paid parental leave (eg), guess what, they can write that into the legislature.

The only reason men don't get to combine working and being with their children is that they don't want to.

I think men have it hard as the dont have any choices, they have to do hard and do all the dirty jobs and also they miss out on time with their kids. I think I am lucky as a women that I get to combine working and being with my children and it is more difficult to do for men because of societal expectations.

It's very safe, though because everyone is middle class. Britain has got gated communities but Japan doesn't.
re. the groping. I don't think there's more of that than in Britain. Body space is respected more here, that's why they don't shake hands, so that ripples over into society.
I think the groping on subways would happen more in Tokyo because there's no community ethos there, and mainly young people live there. Most people leave Tokyo when they decide to have a family and they return to their hometowns

Men should have an equal chance to stay home if they want to and lots of couples enable that to occur. On the whole men are not as opressed either int eh UK or rbroad as women.

Japan is a pretty awful place - groping on underground, all that really strange porn stuff and cartoons, massive sexism.. not a nice place at all. Cultures of conformism rarely places most people would choose to live. The Taliban have stamped out much crime. In Singapore you commit a crime if you use chewing gum etc etc... The fact there may be less crime in places where your hand is chopped off for stealing never endears me to a plaec. When Japan starts to have British levels of female representation on boards and the like I might start to feel happier about it. It has also had zero growth for huge long periods and mortgages it can take 100 years to pay off inherited frmo parents, very little land available m, small families and all very cramped up and so uniform - institutionalised conformance, not fun.

Thanks everyone who has contributed here - one of the most interesting things I've read in a long time.

21-Aug-10 13:36:24
"Here is a chilling quote in Der Spiegel (English version) from a Greek man this week about how the economic crisis there has diminished his status as head of his family:"

Not being head of his family isn't oppression for a man, it's freedom for a woman.

It just goes to show how patriarchy has used economics to keep women down and men up.

Could you explain this further dittany?

yes the men are trapped here under patriarchy, without a doubt.

HOWEVER

it is nothing like the soul-destroying existence that a lot of the housewives live, living vivariously through their children, zombies in the shopping mall, or part-time work on the supermarket check-out for the rest of their lives.

ABout hostess bars, yes, there is a culture of that. But I would say "snack" bars are more popular. They are run by a Mama-san, and she makes conversation with the men, chats to them etc, She can be middle-aged. Strangely, there are also host bars for rich, bored housewives. Don't see the appeal myself.

dittany - just to clarify, the chilling bit was his stated willngness to use violence along with other men - suggesting a potentially violent breakdown in Greek society. Not his loss of status.

Sakura - my DW would agree with most of what you say especially about women being safe on the street. She did say though as a Western woman she felt she was treated quite differently to Japanese women.. There was a lot of sureptitious groping of Japanese women on underground trains as well as lot of Japanese men reading quite violent pornographc comic books which she found unsettling.

The drinking culture she saw was quite heavy among business men although they do not metabolise it well as you say. She also said that men were very much trapped in thw firms they worked for and had little family life and long hours. There was a lot of going out to hostess bars too after work.