Do you think men and women are 'of equal value but different' or actually 'the same'?

saf - i adore brain plasticity. thankfully dc3 is now able to walk and talk, despite neither looking particularly likely in the neonatal period. now, just to get rid of some of the retained reflexes...

i did not know that was an ad-lib! you learn something every day...

interestingly, the only people i know who are consciously (and sometimes desperately) keen to fit a binary mould self-identify as trans. i've had fascinating conversations with an mtf who is frantically trying to get 'female' right, to fit into society. i find that really sad, but do understand the motive.

LackingInspiration You're fighting against a force that is far bigger than you, the impact you have had alone is commendable considering your daughter's friends, the media, everyone else who reinforces the gender stereotypes - you are only one person. This couple went to an extreme to prevent their child being stereotyped by others, this kind of effort makes the paper.

Ok, I'm starting to come round to this idea of us not being different just because we're a different gender - so we're different, but just because none of us is the same person as someone else.

I think I haven't been able to protect my girls enough from being socialised to see girls and boys as different . I have certainly managed to do it to a certain extent - DD1 says she likes climbing trees; football etc. and is as happy to be doing those things as she is to be playing with my little poneis. But she defines at as 'wanting to do boy things'

I don't think I agree with either option. People come in an incredible variety, ever one of them unique, so "the same" seems meaningless to me.

Likewise I don't think that people are inherently equal. In theory people should be valued equally, but I'm not sure in practice that works at all. When I think of my team at work I value those that work hard more than those that slack off. I value loyal friends more than flaky ones. Family more than strangers etc etc

at the risk of sounding like monty python, we're all individuals different.

i've never been much of a 'this world has to be defined in terms of the binary' fan. and have fought long and hard against people defining me in those terms. (i wanted to join the marines because they said i couldn't...)

i don't believe that any person should have their life/ activities defined by their identification as male/ female or anything else, legally or culturally.

It really irritates me when my FIL tries to argue that 'men are stronger than women' is a valid statement. I think that logically, it's too vague: which men and which women? All of them? To me it seems to carry the implication that 'all men are stronger than all women'. Which is clearly stupid. Even 'most men are stronger than most women', which he sometimes adjusts it to, is plausible but unproven, and also still fairly useless as a thing to say. Also he seems to think it's inherent or entirely biological, rather than at all culturally affected by attitudes to exercise etc.

I agree that there are more differences within than between, and that trans and intersex should be factored in, all of which renders most (all?) debates about gender both difficult and often pointless.

i lie more on the 'same' side of the argument than the 'equal but different' side.

as a map-reading, mathematician, female i believe we are not different intellectually mentally or psychologically.

there are some obvious differences physically but actually having practised martial arts i can say that not all men are stronger or more physical than most women... pysicality and the ability to use your strength comes with practise.

i haven't yet carried a pregnancy to term but i assume that's where the real differences kick in.. i often joke that i'd rather be a father than a mother.. but then i've had all the stress and none of the reward of motherhood yet.

i'll go with A - defintely different, but equally valid, useful and important.

I think all people are of equal value but different (well,maybe not Hitler etc...).I think that it is a meaningless statement when applied to men and women in real life.

It leads to having to define exactly how men and women are different,and then,usually, to women having to explain exactly how they are equal,because the default in society is to male = better.
I suppose I don't think gender should be seen as being any more significant than any other variation in the human race.(this is in my ideal world!)

there are slight average differences between male and female groups. plenty of evidence on that one.

but you never deal with people as averages - only as the individual standing in front of you.

and there is so much variance between individuals.

although studies into gender differences/ sex differnces are interesting, i don't think they'll ever tell you anything about how to treat the people you come into contact with.

the extent to which socialisation creates gender difference is also interesting, but i think the physical differences are going to lead to it not all being about socialisation. In a way, unless you believe in a non-physical soul, that's probably the only valid conclusion - those body/ chemical differences are going to produce mind/ behaviour differences.

It doesn't bother me, Sorky, I just notice the different feeling I get when I ask a woman to when I ask a man. When I ask a woman it's like I can't reach it because I'm short, when I ask a man I feel like I can't reach it because I'm a woman...and I feel the person I've asked feels those things too.

Thanks, another for the "To read" list, one day I hope to have time to read all of the books on it!

novicemama - there was some discussion of SBC over here

Strangers get v het up when you haven't dressed your babies/small children in gender stereotypical clothes and they accidentally call them a boy when they are in fact a girl (or vice versa). I'm not too bothered by what my children wear, have one of each, but identifying gender does seem to be important to people.

It wasthis one I think.

It wouldn't bother me to ask for help from anyone if I couldn't reach something. So I probably take the view that we are the same.

If someone else can reach it great, as long as I get it!

Carole Malone (in I think the MoS) slated Angelina Jolie for letting her dd dress like a boy!!
We're our own worst enemies sometimes...

I'd quite like my 3yo to stay dressed!!

I also agree that there are far more differences within sexes than between. The fact that someone is male or female is of no more relevance in most cases than the fact that they have red hair, or a dodgy back, or never met a choc ice they didn't like.

I think that men and women are different, but their differences should not be used to justify different treatment or rights.

Eg the fact that women have babies and go on maternity leave is a fact, but not a valid justification for the pay gap.

interesting thread!

Does anyone know the work of Simon Baron-Cohen on the autistic spectrum? (yes he is the brother of Sasha but also a respected scientist!). I went to a really interesting lecture he gave about male / female brains. I am going to get it wrong now, but basically he said that people fall all along the spectrum from 'normal' to 'highly autistic' and also from 'normal' to 'highly empathetic'. More men are on the autistic side than women and autistic traits are typically more 'masculine' traits. But we don't have a word or a diagnosis for people who stray into the highly empathetic end of the spectrum because they operate well in society where autistic people don't.

I think in the end he was saying that there are differences but that they are really not so huge - you can get women on the highly autistic side and vice versa, and basically we are all humans. I agree with Elephants that defining people by their gender is a red herring - there are so many other factors that make us all different and none is better than another. Just different.

Which book elephants?