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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Misogynist Fathers

33 replies

slouchingtowardswaitrose · 17/08/2010 20:19

Can we talk about them?

I have one.

I don't even know how much I am prepared to share, but want to talk about how you deal with it when your parent perpetuates the kind of harm you are trying so hard to campaign against. It sucks.

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 18/08/2010 12:00

fucking hell slouching. It sounds like you have moved on to a more healthy way of living now though. My DM who grew up with a real shit of a father married the most gentle and lovely man and raised me as a feminist, and I'm sure you are doing the same for your DCs. How old are they? Perhaps they could see your parents without you being there? I used to be roped in to visit various toxic relatives who would have given my DM an afternoon of misery had she come along, but were only interested in playing tiddlywinks with their little niece/granddaughter.

Original poster
slouchingtowardswaitrose · 18/08/2010 00:40

YES. Exactly.

I had a lot invested in not being like 'those other girls/women' - but I also had a desire for male approval. Being cooler than the other girls was my MO.

Being cooler than the other girls meant I had to not complain about misogynist stuff my male friends did. Because what is more uncool than an angry joykilling woman?

Where it went wrong was in romantic relationships, when I couldn't maintain the facade of not actually being a real woman.

I particularly disappointed one man when I failed to be cool enough for his lifestyle, thereby making him look bad, which was so embarrassing apparently he had to start beating the shit out of me on a regular basis. I was so uncool, according to his bandmates, they had to design an album cover featuring a woman who looked like me getting hit by a car.

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 17/08/2010 23:49

well, yeah!

it's not a compliment in the same way that an abusive partner's "you're not a slag like most women", is not a compliment. It's more of a threat really - conform to my prescription of your behaviour or you'll be like all those other women, you know, the ones I hate.

Original poster
slouchingtowardswaitrose · 17/08/2010 23:31

So true re me and their father. Luckily, while holding on to some unconscious sexist stuff, their he does lots of housework and childcare and never acts as if doing so is in any way degrading or emasculating.

I was thinking about the honorary boy thing - I wonder if this is how a misogynistic man deals with the conflict that is 'I degrade and/or devalue women, but have a daughter I don't want degraded or devalued...hmm...AHA! I will make her into a boy!'

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MarineIguana · 17/08/2010 23:20

I think many men have a misogynistic streak, I think that more and more the more I hear about/observe other people's relationships. I don't feel that from my DP, luckily, though I could be blinded by love :o I don't think they all are.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 17/08/2010 23:17

Sounds like you have had a lot of thinking to do over the years, slouching, to get to this point. He sounds like...not a very nice man.

But I don't know how much your kids will pick up on or care about what he thinks about women. He is their grandfather, and thus by definition behind the times. They will see him as an old man, and you can contextualise this by pointing out that many people used to hold these views, but now almost everyone realises how stupid those views are. You and their father and the ones who will influence what they think "the norm" is.

MarineIguana · 17/08/2010 23:17

Oh SWT your long post rings a lot of bells and even made me relieved anew that I don't see my dad, even after 15 or so years. He was full of scorn and always had it in for female teachers and professionals while at the same time being revoltingly self-congratulatory if I did well. I was also an honorary boy (as well as a tomboy) and for a long time desperately tried to avoid being a girl.

My dad too had something to offer - he was very well-informed and clever and I owe him my love of science and nature. My DC would enjoy that side of him maybe - but he is far too unpleasant for me to want to have any dealings with him and it wouldn't be worth it.

Yes, misogyny is very different from sexism - we are all inculcated with sexist values, though some of us do what we can to think through and challenge them; but proper woman-hating is more of a monstrous and frightening thing IME.

TheCrackFox · 17/08/2010 23:16

I found your post very interesting slouching. Smile

My mum absolutely favoured my brother for the simple fact he was a boy. She was delighted that I had 2 sons "a mother's love for her son is beyond measure" Hmm Which I found an odd thing to say to her own daughter by ho, hum.

Actually my examples are endless so I won't bore you with them. Just the little drip, drip effect has worn me down over the years.

I haven't stopped contact (she isn't a bad person) but I challenge her at every point. TBH I am banging my head against a brick wall.

LadyBlaBlah · 17/08/2010 23:14

"How much does your father's misogyny come out in day to day interaction?"

He died last year

But he was misogynistic to a certain extent, as I think most men are, but nothing that we could not have a stand up rowhealthy debate about.

Original poster
slouchingtowardswaitrose · 17/08/2010 23:07

Wow major cross post. Must go back and read thread, apologies for not responding to pps.

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Original poster
slouchingtowardswaitrose · 17/08/2010 23:06

Marine, my DC rarely see my dad. I'd like them to see more of him, because I think he has some useful, interesting, good things to pass on to them. And because they love him. And because I love him. We do not live very close.

I'm not worried about him passing on sexist ideas - I am happy to challenge these at the time, or later, just as I challenge lots of ideas my children hear, like that Jesus is coming for us soon or boys don't cry.

It's...the fact that his behaviour, and attitude to women, my mother, my many stepmothers, his constant pursuit of new women, etc, affected my development, my sense of worth, my identity, my sexuality, my choices, etc, to such an extent that I am only now, with grey hair and 2 children, coming to terms with it all and recognizing JUST how fucked up it all was.

And I always knew it was quite fucked up.

I used to please him. I was his interesting daughter who was doing this or that interesting thing in this or that interesting place. It was crucial that I 'not be like other girls.' In a way, I was used as a female son. If that makes any kind of sense. He wanted me to be a 'chick [insert typically male profession].' Now I'm a bore, a disappointment. The other day he called me 'suburban housewife' and laughed. Actually I'm an urban housewife, in fact I prefer homemaker, in fact I also home educate, run my own business and non-profit voluntary org, but hey. And he fucking hates suburban housewives. He has mocked and scathed suburban housewives my whole life (as has my mum). Of course he mocks and scathes all kinds of women so I probably can't win unless I'm being the chick whatever, son he never had.

I don't want to win.

I do, however, want some distance.

Yet I also want closeness, because I am his daughter and I love him.

Such is the nature of abuse, eh?

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quaere · 17/08/2010 22:58

You said it's unreasonable to object about someone's opinions, even if they are damaging, there has to be another reason like violence before you can do anything about it, like 'leave'. Violence is pretty extreme. There are lots of levels of 'unreasonable' before you get to violence. Misogyny and violence against women are often connected. Sexism and misogyny are different, I think. Sexism is more prejudice (girls like pink, boys like blue kind of thing). Misogyny literally means hatred of women. Would you expect an Asian person to put up with the opinions of a racist?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 17/08/2010 22:57

Yeah I've done that before thanks LBB. But I think it is hardly surprising if many people subconsciously associate good things with the skin colour of their own self/family/community.

anyway I don't want to draw away from slouching's OP. I am lucky in that my parents are fundamentally good sorts, but some of the things they come out with on occasion still make me wince.

How much does your father's misogyny come out in day to day interaction?

LadyBlaBlah · 17/08/2010 22:53

There is an interesting way to test this for yourselves BTW

Attitude surveys apparently show that people are not racist, sexist or anything non pc-ist etc etc. however if you take the implicit attitude tests you may very well surprise yourself.

here

LadyBlaBlah · 17/08/2010 22:47

Well I do happen to believe that most men (I can't say all because there is always the black swan) could be classed as sexist. As could most women.

But that is not to say that it is all their fault. They live in a particular culture and are conforming to the social norms.

LadyBlaBlah · 17/08/2010 22:45

yes, and ....?

I don't understand what you are saying with your last post quaere

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 17/08/2010 22:42

Also I don't believe that all men are sexist.

quaere · 17/08/2010 22:41

You said you can't write someone off just because of their opinions, 'there has to be more to it'. Then you cited violence as a reason.

LadyBlaBlah · 17/08/2010 22:39

You are totally misrepresenting and misunderstanding what I say, but each to their own

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 17/08/2010 22:38

If one of your parents is not bringing anything positive into your life, and you think they are damaging & upsetting you and your kids, then you don't have to keep in touch with them. Whether it's their fault or not, the end result is what matters day to day.

quaere · 17/08/2010 22:36

Oh crikey, I forgot we have to let men beat the crap out of us before we can object

quaere · 17/08/2010 22:35

Social pressures bullshit. If you're an intelligent human being, you can come up with your own opinions.

LadyBlaBlah · 17/08/2010 22:33

I can't imagine anyone would not speak to their parents ever again just because they are sexist. You would never speak to a man again if that were the case.

There surely must be more to it.

e.g. violence

The point about the vacuum is that everyone is subjected to social pressures and conforms to social norms, even misogynistic men. Is this their fault?

MadAboutQuavers · 17/08/2010 21:07

Personally, I would ignore LadyBlahbla

There comes a time in your life when you have to cut out the people who make you very unhappy. If he is making you unhappy, and you are subject to his mysogyny, tell him you don't want to know and explain why. Just don't expect him to understand, although it would be a bonus if he saw your POV.

Respect is a two way thing.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 17/08/2010 21:06

My DM kept us away from her father because he was a violent misogynist. TBH I never ever wish I could have met him or known him, he was an arse who did untold damage. I'm not sure why humility is in order.