I think I might call this a day

People will always disagree with your opinions and heartfelt beliefs - no reason to throw in the towel though. Although it can be exhausting at times. Stick with it.

i'm a lurker normally, occasionally post. this topic has taught me lots.

also i read a bit about feminists actually thinking more of men than 'non feminists' to my dh. Saying that feminists credited men with being adults and having self restraint, whereas they're often not credited that way (eg 'you shouldn't wear a short skirt a man might not be able to contain himself and rape you' ditto with women drinking etc' or my mum's classic the other day 'he (my dad) doesn't need to know how to use the washing machine, he's got me' !! Treats a grown man with a 6 figure job as an infant who can't work a washing machine!!) Anyway, point is he brought it up again the next day and said he'd been thinking about it. Has led to lots of interesting conversations between us.

so, don't stop please isn't

There are always going to be people who want to maintain a cultural norm (no matter how repulsive) and defend vested interests in the status quo, so social reformers have had to fight for things such as: the vote for men who were not Lords, for the repeal of slavery, rights for men who were poor to go to university, votes for women, the right for women to go to university, for the minimum wage, equal pay, ending of gender discrimination etc etc.

The reason people had to fight for stuff like this is the number of people who have an interest in not changing anything. The peasants revolt and the Jarrow marchers were making legitimate points about poor people unable to earn money and dying of hunger, but it ended up as a "don't rock the boat" debate with the vested interests winning as they controlled both parliament and the police/army. The peasants were executed for standing up for themselves and not obeying their "betters".

We still have to fight social oppression and exploitation and I see feminism as one group that does that.

Yeah but without the men you wouldn't have anything to complain about. So they are important really, aren't they?

Don't go-it's really important to have this topic and to have good discussion on here. This page has completely re-energised my commitment to feminism (especially at work, where I'm now one of the more senior women) and provoked a lot of thinking. I lurk a lot more than I post, and I expect there are a lot of women who do that.

Even some of the twerpy posts are informative, in a roundabout way. They remind me how important it is that we do keep working and plugging away at the arguments.

I second that, LeninGrad. I've learnt an awful lot from here (have learnt from you too, LeninGrad!) if it is making people think about issues they had never before considered, then these are things that need to be discussed.

I feel exactly the same way.

I was thinking about this earlier, and it seems to me that it happens pretty much every time somebody talks about a social justice campaign, it will be derailed by someone talking about another social group. The person who does the derailing then says it is all just competitive victimhood, but they are actually the person who is competitively comparing groups!

Social justice campaigners in general are not interested in demonstrating that gay people/women/religious minorities are worse off than ethnic minorities/people with disabilites/working class people. They simply want to focus on a specific campaign, which is what many feminists on here would also like to do.

What feminsts are trying to do is talk about what the oppression of women means in our lives and how the negative experiences that are unique to women as a group can be combated. I am well aware that other people are having a tough time too - feminism is not the main social justice campaign I am involved in. But I would just for once like to be able to talk about the oppression of women - including myself. Clearly this is not the space for that to happen.

I think the derailment is done not just to stop us talking about ourselves, but also by constantly bringing up exluded groups of men, it detracts attention away from the privilege that men hold.

ISNT - I read all the threads in this section even though I only post on a few.

Well done to all who debate back and forth when some of the threads go ballistic. I already spend to much time on t'internet and often feel that I don't have the energy for some of the discussions.

The fact that people come and "invade" here means that we're touching a nerve!

Why have you assumed that it is only disabled men who are being enabled to use prostitutes?

I don't agree with all feminists on this board so as tortoise says - hiding all but feminists wouldn't help because we're not homogeneous and we don't agree on every facet within a discussion.

I think that this forum is brilliant, even with the trolls because there are the odd few posters who change their mind and if there are some of them, think about all the lurkers. This is something that the offline feminist groups couldn't achieve because they were preaching to the converted, but this way, we're converting at least some people who're unsure. We need to collect more supporters for the feminist movement and this is a great way of changing peoples minds and spreading the word.

You are educating people on this board. And you have to remember that some 'but what about the men?' questions are genuine 'I don't understand how this works, can you explain further?' questions.

Glad to hear it, ISNT.

And, also, some of the things you were talking about in your OP - I'm a regular poster to the Feminism section, as you know, but I still had a different opinion on the trans threads to you and Dittany and Sakura et al. So even shutting things off to just Real Feminists wouldn't always help!

glad youre not going Isnt-you say some very interesting stuff.
i agree with what everyone else has said.

AMumInScotland wrote "I'm assuming there are feminism forums out there?".

I wish there were, but I've not found any, that last for long. They either fizzle out through lack of posts or the hosts decide that it is too much hassle and they close the boards. If anybody knows of any other thriving feminism forum out there, some links would be welcome!

So you don't have to go you make things interesting and whether or not someone is arguing with you they may still take on board what you say you will be surprised i know i have thought of things i didn't before.