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Original poster

why do women collude in their own oppression?

296 replies

ColdComfortFarm · 13/08/2010 22:05

Following the notorious Sebastian Horley thread, I feel utter despair at the way women defend their oppressors. Black people would never attend the funeral of someone who advocated cutting up black people with chainsaws, enslaving and raping them, so why do women? I'm not a fool, I know that society protects misogynists in a way it does not protect racists, but even so, why do women support women-haters in a way that Jews or black people (for example) do not? And how can we change this?

OP posts:
slightreturn · 14/08/2010 13:03

good point Sammyuni a womans feelings to her son/brother /partner and the ones she loves will more than likely coflict.....

LeninGrad · 14/08/2010 13:01

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Sammyuni · 14/08/2010 12:57

It's not meant as either/or it's more to do with them more likely to think but what about my son etc how will this affect my loved ones. Which means that their views would be in a way watered down if you get my meaning.

dittany · 14/08/2010 12:53

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LeninGrad · 14/08/2010 12:50

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Prolesworth · 14/08/2010 12:49

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dittany · 14/08/2010 12:47

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Original poster
ColdComfortFarm · 14/08/2010 12:40

The pressure on women to conform, and the penalties for not doing so are huge, of course. And traditionally men assiduously police women right from the Taliban with their iron bars, to the Raoul Moats of our society and even the men who demand 'smile, love' at strangers in the street. In this context, I suppose the desire to be on the 'winning side' as I think Dittany describes it is a powerful one. Nobody wants to seem weak. Other liberation movements however have been better able to stand together, despite having been persecuted via, eg slavery. I suppose they are able to be more separatist, which is something heterosexual women or those who want children are not able to be. It is possible to oppose misogyny and have good relations with decent men, just as the Civil Rights leaders worked with white people - but we do hhave to see ourselves as equals in the partnership, and from what I see around me, despite the massive increase in confidence in many young women, this dream is still a long way off.
By the way, I pleased to see this discussion being robustly on track despite efforts to derail.

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LeninGrad · 14/08/2010 12:39

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Sammyuni · 14/08/2010 12:39

Dittany i don't agree with your global mens club idea black men for example are more likely to take interest in cases involving racism than sexism. The same for other minorities there are large groups of male and female (and i guess people in between as well) but within those groups there are smaller ones which people have stronger bonds to and they take greater interest in.

fluffles · 14/08/2010 12:36

"Women have sons,brothers,fathers,friends etc and family bonds are stronger for most people than that of bonds to a stranger who shares the same sex."

I think this is SPOT ON.

Sammyuni · 14/08/2010 12:35

Sakura i know it's a wrong perception there are many different sectors within feminism however that part just happens to be pushed to the front.

As to collude that's a good point for such i guess they may look at things more abstractly, they may also just want to side more with men. But i think most women don't see men as oppressors so don't feel that they are colluding.

You know it's like the saying the greatest trick the devil pulled was making people think he didn't exist. A good comment it may apply here however just to make sure my comment is not misconstrued men are not devils and i am only using the spirit of the phrase.

LeninGrad · 14/08/2010 12:32

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slightreturn · 14/08/2010 12:29

of course i can assert authority about what i believe to be good and intelligent, which is what i thought of the posts earlier...balanced and well thought out..in my ever so humble male subservient position of course....

dittany · 14/08/2010 12:27

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slightreturn · 14/08/2010 12:20

here we go again!..i happen to think they were good..ok whether you do or not is irrelevant.

slouchingtowardswaitrose · 14/08/2010 12:19

I am returning to feminism after being turned off by 'it' for a brief period during my pursuit of motherhood and early motherhood.

However, my first 'feminism' was mostly informed by a very American, middle class, university lecturer 'NOW' feminism. Literally.

I had an identity crisis about it, really. I'm now finding my place again.

I have all kinds of new radical views that are polar opposite to my views before motherhood.

Prolesworth · 14/08/2010 12:17

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slightreturn · 14/08/2010 12:16

I told you didnt i !...and knew it would be dittany..lol!

dittany · 14/08/2010 12:14

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slightreturn · 14/08/2010 12:07

one good post after another....im sure somebodys going to spoil it soon...!

PosieParker · 14/08/2010 12:04

Perhaps it is the desire to be part of a different more powerful collective, the 'now' collective. The collective that is lighthearted enough to laugh at misogynist jokes, not out on a limb whilst everyone else laughs along. Middle class women can afford to be feminists, working class women or women in poverty would see feminism as a very low priority. She would be more concerned about food on the table than whether or not Jimmy Carr is an arsehole.

slightreturn · 14/08/2010 11:56

Feminism is really seen as a middle class white womans pursuit (in general in this country), whether it is or not almost does not factor as that is what it is seen as and it puts off many women. Also i do feel that the more extreme elements of feminism get the most attention and that also puts many women off. Women have sons,brothers,fathers,friends etc and family bonds are stronger for most people than that of bonds to a stranger who shares the same sex.

Good post!...Sammyuni

Sakura · 14/08/2010 11:54

Good point there slouching about not wanting to be part of a collective. THat could be part of it i.e I'm not a feminist, I'm me

BUt I think most self-defined feminists (and I am one) have simply read some feminist book somewhere along the line and thought "bloody hell, she's right !" And then Pandora's box opens and can't be closed again.

Perhaps some women don't come accross the right books. Or perhaps their not ready to see what's written there. The most powerful and important feminist works are for all women.

Sakura · 14/08/2010 11:50

but Sammyuni, this thread is not about what puts women off feminism i.e wrong perceptions about what "feminism" is

This thread is about why women collude in their oppression. So if a woman is not a self-identified feminist for the reasons you gave, why should that stop her from being on the girl's team? Or why should that make her laugh at misogynistic jokes etc. Why should she collude in her oppression just because she happens not to identify with some feminist 'brand'?