why do women collude in their own oppression?

This thread is very interesting. I was wondering the same thing when the raol moat story was on, and so many people supported him. A woman even set up a fan site for him. And this was a man that used to beat his girlfriend, and finally shot her.

STW, sorry if me posting those links was upsetting. I agree that they are ethnic slurs, and that is in fact pointed out in the links. I included them to point out that the accusation of collusion in groups linked to social justice campaigns is hugely problematic and prone to misuse, which is also discussed in the links, particularly the second one. I posted them in response to the examples given in the OP.

I certainly would not advocate anyone using such terms, whether they belonged to specific minority group or not. So sorry to you or anyone else who would rather not have such terms mentioned on the thread.

Damn. And to think I could have set up a warmth, human contact and lemonade stand instead of working all the shit jobs I did to get through various universities. Obviously there would have been no need for me to shave or anything, and I could have worn my old joggers, since I am more able to provide emotional cuddles when really comfortable.

Do you think the prostitutes gain the same benefits from the transaction?

I wonder how many men would seek out a prostitute for a bit of warmth and human contact if he weren't also buying access to her body?

Funny though that after all my training in psychotherapy, I never felt the need to shoot up between client sessions...ho hum.

Anyway, well done Kate.

Oh I see. Insightful.

The intimate nature of the prostitute-client relationship is much more complex than it first appears. Whether women are affluent call girls or street girls with few resources, clients sometimes find prostitutes? company comforting and therapeutic. At times, the only thing a client is looking for is simple warmth and human contact, even though he might initially define that need as sex. Time spent with a person who listens can be comforting and emotionally beneficial to one person in the same way that seeking out a professional psychologist might be reassuring to another. The belief that the prostitute-client relationship is always mercenary, cold, and mechanical simply is not always true. Men experienced with prostitutes have sometimes found that showing their humanity and concern for the prostitute sometimes makes the potentially awkward encounter more enjoyable for both.

Feminists should take more care in forming beliefs about prostitutes. Information and reflection on prostitution, then, has the potential for a humane, affirmative approach to this myth-laden institution.

yes i can see all middle class women like Justine Roberts, Carrie Longton and friends mst be continually oppressed.......must be hell of a life eh?

To my mind, there are different flavours of feminism, and I would position myself more with socialist feminists than radical feminists. Others might be libertarian feminists etc etc. But someone who equates fighting female oppression with whining is technically known as an arsehole.

militant minded women who tend to bitch about a patriachal society, endlessly whining about inequality etc etc etc....is that enough..?

Whats your definition of rad feminist, slightreturn?

That is so sad for you about your mother, Slouching.I can really hear the frustration and despair in your description

why is feminism out of fashion?...simple its so bloody boring......what gut would revel in living with rad feminist....if there are any guys here please post i'm curious..

Agreed.

As for the 'petty' beauty stuff, I'm very torn about how much I capitulate. On the one hand, I want approval and to be desired. On the other, I can't be bothered and am full of resentment that I am not good enough just like this. And then there's the POV that a multi-cultural feminism would accept that humans like to decorate themselves and change their bodies and it's really no big deal. Except that multi-national corporations are involved in our patriarchal beauty scam so it's very different to authentic self-expression through adornment, transformation etc.

When I look at my poor, tragic mother, I can see how much she loathes herself. What she does to herself, beauty-wise, is insane, and she looks awful. Obvious plastic surgery, coloured hair, kabuki make-up, affected drag queenish 'feminine' mannerisms. I can see why she is such an easy target for abusive men. She is a deeply insecure narcissist and she looks like one. All they have to do is approach, flatter her, wait until she's in position, and attack. She has spent my whole life seeking male attention, ending up in the shit, then having to shovel herself out before doing it all over again. Yet she considers herself a feminist. And once asked me was I not so proud that we had survived (all the abusive men and dire situations she put us in) and were so strong and resilient, yay for women, roar.

Slouching I think most of us collude in our own oppression to some extent. For example I wax my legs, wear lipstick, wear high heels even though I know it's bad for me. Of course it makes for an easier life to be approved of and unthreatening to most of the people around you. It's how far you collude though isn't it - to the extent where you celebrate and defend someoen who publicly spoke about you with total contempt, looks so completely lacking in self-respect. It looks really alienated from oneself, really Stockholm Syndromed.

OP, slouching, I was OP

I don't know.

Let's ask Dolly Parton.

Personally I find the terms Uncle Tom and Self-Hating Jew deeply offensive. I have always heard them used as either ethnic slurs by bigoted whites, or as emotionally violent accusations by blacks or jews against those who dared to not toe the party line, whatever it was at the moment.

I collude in my own oppression to a certain extent. I mean, what the fuck do I think is going to happen if I don't? The universe suddenly coming into focus exactly as I want it? Hardly. Not gonna happen in my lifetime, and I want to enjoy my life, which means shrugging my shoulders at times and just getting on with it. This means I am usually suffering a low level of despair, but suffering less than I would if I were fighting all the damn time. Honestly, I used to be very active in 'feminism.' Now, I do care, deeply, but I pick my battles because I am fucking exhausted, maybe somewhat defeated.

What PP said about desiring a sexual relationship. Saying all that, sometimes I think I should just get over being heterosexual and shack up with a radical chick because I am over the kinds of compromises I apparently must make for the approval of men.

Have probably been too honest.

"Masculinity and patriarchy is men "

Yes. You've quoted me but I dont understand your point.

But flibbertygibbet, would you go to Nick Griffin's funeral?

It's one thing not to want to protest at a funeral - it's quite another to celebrate and honour the memory of someone who had absolute contempt for you.

I think feminism is absolutely necessary.

Masculinity and patriarchy is men

...I do, however, often see discussions about feminist issues hijacked with arguments about why feminism isn't necessary or men are being done a disservice by feminist thoughts etc... Like your post for example. There was nothing anti-men on this thread. No "black and white" thinking that I can see.
I dont understand the desire to quash these discussions.

Its not about men. Its about women.