Racism veiled as liberation

Xenia, I think the burqa does actually focus attention on the appearance of women to a degree that would leave many non-Muslim women flabbergasted. Even if you don't have the plastic surgery or the done up eyes or the perfectly shaped eyebrows, you surely take more trouble about your appearance than most fairly casual non-Muslim women do even if all you do is throw on your abaya and cover your hair before going out.

It seems to me there's a lot of fussing about outward appearance in order to do something allegedly inwards-oriented or purely God-oriented. "none of them, muslim women or Hindu women (who are religious too in that way you don't understand) are dressing for you." Then why bother doing it at all? It is not a religious requirement, not something called for by the Koran. The desexualisation of oneself as a woman by covering up with a burqa, a niqab, a scarf over your hair is pleasing to God -- how? Did God make women, and if so why would the sight of them be displeasing to him?

And the covering up of little pre-pubescent girls is just sick. Sorry.

My disappointment in Iran wasn't with the sexism and ridiculous clothing but that it wasn't freeing, that so many women have cosmetic surgery, that so many are in effect play things of men, that so many spend so long on eye make up. They are more into clothes, hair, make up and silly stuff like that than in the West and that felt very dsiappointing. You would have hoped the only good thing the dress might bring was total freedom from having to bother how you look which is how religious dress works with Christians, nuns aren't in sexy stuff underneath with make up on.

I don't think muslimsare less generous than CHristians and countries like Iran had a revolution to get rid of the concentrated power in the hand of the elite which Saudi hasn't managed.

Anyway we're English so we;re not going to be banning clothing.

I read an interesting article about a mother married to a muslim in the US in today's paper where the 9 year old is choosing to cover her head (because all the little girls shemixes with with her father's friends etc do). I wasn't convinced by the arguments but it put a point of view. Would have been Times or Telegraph.

The most beautifully dressed ethnic/religious group in Bristol, for me, are Hindu women...now they do love their flowing silks. Most Muslim women, here, wear black or brown in a very basic material and certainly no individuality or flare....but I'm sure it's not the case in London, in fact I saw lots of Burberry headscarves whilst I was there. Which brings me, neatly, onto another point about religion and dress code. Unfortunately it does seem to be another Islam thing too. But how can closer to God mean cover your hair and walk around dripping with gold, how is being stinking rich pleasing to God, surely it is more pleasing to share wealth? I know, personally, the Clark family of Quakers and even with their massive personal fortune they still live relatively modestly, really help their employees, donate and build their local towns and amenities.

I still don't understand the notion that God would be more pleased if a woman covered completely and doesn't care whether or not she is obscenely rich....

I think the muslim dress is very elegant, in most cases. Not the burqua, obv.
But all those beautiful materials they use; I often feel muslim women have got so much more variety. I'm sure most of the material is imported because none of them appear in high street shops. And it looks so neat. Headscarves have always come in and out of fashion in Europe.

They're not long elegant robes are they? They're huge wind catching robes, no beautiful lines or flowing silks, just triangular layers with a round face in the middle, or not.

There is much worse abuse of women in muslim and all not yet advanced countries than in the UK. So you could conclude keeping women down without power and money and covered in stupid clothes enables men to abuse them. Cast off the veil and be liberated.

So is there no wankery behaviour in Saudi Arabia, northern Nigeria, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan?

(I was thinking of Germany wrt the Nazi ban.)

Don't make remind you of the muffin tops outside your house......

yes, men do need to change their behviour because nothing women wear will change it for them AFAICS. I think this is the problem some western feminists have with the theory behind wearing the veil.
But at the same time I can understand some of the other reasons why muslim women would want to wear the veil, such as being easily identifiable as muslim, or wanting to keep their hair for their husband, or even for asthetic reasons because they do look nice a lot of the time.

I wonder if there would be less ignorant response if Islam wasn't so exclusive...easy to pin racist thoughts on a woman wearing the Burkha(for the racist), perhaps other more 'modest' Muslims make your life harder?

And you do judge dress Riven, just not Muslim dress.

And, No, it won't happen here.

Did you mean 'sacred'?

It's just that many Muslims have 'religious' reasons on some days and not others....so entirely political.

Freudian?

Freudian?

I love that typo Sakura!

see fit

Riven, I think some muslim girls who wear the veil in Europe are naive about men.

When I was studying for my MSc, I had an Indonesian friend who wore the muslim veil, not over the face, but you couldn't see her hair. SHe believed this offered her some sort of protection, and she believed men perceived her differently for wearing it. She came into my room crying one evening because our fellow student had made a pass at her. I asked her about it and it turns out she'd invited him into her room to fix her computer and not for the first time.
He got the wrong idea and I'm not sure what happened but she was very upset.
I'm not blaming her, not at all, but I truly think she belived that wearing muslim dress gave her some sort of protection from the 'male gaze'. She didn't realise that men see women as women, whatever they wear.

Having said that I absolutely believe women have the right to cover themselves however they see feet, but I'm not sure I can fully agree with some of the theory behind doing so.