Racism veiled as liberation

ROFL at offensively smiling people.

Maybe they should make a law that people in Kent should have to wear burqas, to stop them smiling at each other in case it causes an affray.

I meant, men and women don't get beaten for NOT wearing etc...

Ok, but people, men or women, do not get beaten for wearing hoodies, or baseball caps or sunglasses. It's all very well to say that no one should tell women what to wear: does that mean we should ban Gok and Trinnie and Susanna by the way? But it's also worth remembering that many women who wear the burqa/niqab do so because they ARE being told what to wear - by MEN. I am NOT saying that this is universal and it seems that French women are deciding to cover up for themselves but it's important to keep the broader context of compulsion in mind when discussing 'freedom of choice'.

i dont think they have to remove them in shops!
this is like saying that all women who wear
them are potential terrorists!!
anyone could be a terrorist!

milly
[i dont think that women should be told what to wear]

well said!
i writ a post saying something like this last night but decided not to send it as i didnt want to be shouted down!
yes-i agree with you tottally!

I see it as an extension of colonialism - French have a history of telling Muslim people how to live. About ten years ago I worked for a media organisation monitoring international radio broadcasts and there was a story about the French govt trying to "influence" radio broadcasts in Algeria.

Women or indeed anyone should be allowed to wear what they like (within reason) but i agree that they should have to remove the face covering part in shops, airprts ect as it can been seen as a terrorist threat, like motorcycle helmets ect, if one of these women did commit a crime then for the police to beable to track them down it makes sense to beable to see thier faces.

earwicga, a lot of people do feel threatened by people wearing hoodies (proof = they're banned in shopping centres), people feel threatened by people wearing balaclavas....I don't think it's because we're supposed to feel this way, it is because these 2 items of clothing are related to theft and often violence. These are the only other items of clothing which cover up the face therefore people are wary of people covering their faces. This is our culture.

By the way, you say you don't think HerBeatitude said it was anti social to cover up, here's a quote of her post "I think not showing your face is anti social in our society"

There was some interesting Muslim bloke on the radio the other day talking about the fact that when he sees young girls in headscarves and face veils, quite often they aren't remotely modestly dressed according to muslim standards - they're wearing quite skimpy dresses, quite revealing jeans/ trousers, rather than loose clothing and the only thing islamic there is the veil - so it does look like this is a political/ cultural statement, rather than only a religious one, for some sections of young muslim women.

Which of course, is driven by the hostility to it in the media and politics.

MillyR I think that's true as well. But it's not just about telling women what to do. It's also about a very deep paranoia about the threat to French culture that the veil is so visible a symbol of.

It's like Xenia said, we're not like the French. That's why there's no English equivalent of the Academie Francaise, trying to protect our language. We'll take words from anywhere, we're confident that English can cope as a language and if we're not, we don't care that much anyway.

the wearing of the niqab seems to be very popular now with young muslims. i wonder if it is like a youth subculture amongst themselves so they identify with their own youth group. it's interesting that in more liberal middle eastern countries like syria, the niqab is frowned on by older women.
stricter islamic dress in this country also seems more prevalent amongst muslims in poorer areas, and from poorer backgrounds. those whose families are more educated or affluent seem much more liberal.
personally, i think that if it's a personal choice by the woman to wear a scarf, fair enough. although i admit to feeling uneasy when i see a woman in a full veil which is not a requirement of her religion.

earwica: In what way is the burqa/niqab antisocial? I don't get that a woman who choses not to show her face is considered to be anti-social.

For reasons HerBeatitude said! It is covering yourself up, how is it not antisocial?

I don't think what women should be told what to wear.

We can dislike something and think it is a poor choice, but part of women having liberty is being allowed to make poor choices without some institution stepping in and telling us what to do as if we are children.

The veil argument is just a variation on the constant theme of trying to control women and what they do with their bodies.

I think not showing your face is anti social in our society, in exactly the same way as wearing sunglasses permanently or a hoodie is.

It is contrary to how people have related to each other in the west. Hence folk tales about dodgy characters always featuring hoods, concealing faces etc. There's something which we find slightly suspicious about concealing your face. It's associated with secrecy, criminality and being up to no good and has been for centuries. That's why people go slightly bonkers about it, I think, even when they rationally know there's nothing essentially wrong with a woman wearing a niqab or a teenager wearing a hoodie, it taps into a cultural discomfort about it.

The French law is a bit odd. So much for Voltaire and the traditions of the enlightenment.

I agree with Xenia that we don't live in an isolated bubble, we are all part of a community and we all have the potential to affect it.

I think she is right to say that burkha wearers affect other women - by making it more common so that other women feel obliged to wear it. More than just this, however, is the thought that it may gradually affect society's perception of women, about what women's place is, what we should be doing, etc, and how women are viewed by men.

And I also agree about the tight skirt and high heels. Bad for the feet, bad for the spine, very uncomfortable, I don't understand why people wear high heels. But I wouldn't ban them. Just as with the burkha, instead I think education is the way forward - get people to think about why they are wearing them, why they feel obliged to, and the impact it is having on other people as it becomes the expected norm.

Anything long (and tight skirt and high heels) makes it hard to get about, cycle, run etc and people should be free to explain that and our hisotry - how Victorian women fought long and hard to get into trousers and out of hobble skirts, corset etc.

I wouldn't ban it though. Perhaps we could say in the U Muslim men must cover up and women not though - just reverse the sexes on that point for 2000 years and see how the men feel about it and don't let muslim men out of the house unless accompanied by a female relative.

I don't think it should be banned but I do think it's anti social.