Jane Eyre

Ref to "CE" should of course be to "CB" (but that's basically a QED all on its own!).

Helen is Maria, Pan - CB's oldest sister, who died at (and possibly because of) the unspeakable school they were sent to.

My thing about JE (which absolutely squares with the fairy-tale resonance, and is why Helen has to die, etc.) is that it's fairly bare, & visceral, Freudian dream-work in novel form* - making myth (via symbol) out of autobiography.

That explains for me why the different stages of the book are so different, so almost incompatible. The Red Room, and "we talk, I believe, all day long" do not belong in the same world, let alone book.

And that being the case I am not sure that I can do much more with it, as a book, than see it in its immediate (ie CE's personal) psychological context - I can't (unlike lots of other Victorian literature) give it a wider social contextual relevance. Though perhaps some Jung (per the fairy tales) would apply - but that's the same idea, really.

*though not as bare & visceral as Villette (passim).

I think I have recalled just one strand of the story, then. The one that resonated for me. There are others too, clearly.

But her strength doesn't come entirely from a sense of duty. She identifies herself very early on in the book as a "rebel slave".

Regarding the romance, I was quite convinced. As far as I remember it, their relationship was full of the kind of banter that suggests a strong intellectual understanding.

Yes. Passive aggressive not that different from slave morality. And like you I see the blindness in terms of her control of Rochester.

I'm not a huge fan of Jane Eyre; I find Jane quite passive aggressive and the romance quite puzzling. Obviously it is complete lust but CB seems to want to dress it up as something else in deference to the time. I always saw Rochester's blindness as a way of Jane being able to take even more control of him. I much prefer Wuthering Heights where the carnality is much more upfront and no one is effecting to be a martyr.

And remember Helen, Jayne's only friend at the orphanage??and why did Helen have to die so young? They missed such a trick on the 'feminst road story' there. Had the Brontes never heard of Thelma and Louise FFS??

Good point re Jane's strength of character, Iorek. I don't think it tells against the slave morality reading, but it is certainly in tension with it -- in an interesting and good way. One of the ways that literature is better than the analysis of it is that it can contain and thrive on contradiction.

Her strength of character, though, is founded on a sense of duty? Whereas N (scared to mention his name now) has a character-based notion of morality and would regard 'duty' as a self-abnegating and craven form of morality.

And I'm interested in the Rapunzel point. So there are at least two fairy stories JE resonates with -- Rap and Beauty & Beast. No wonder it is a powerful story.

Have to agree with Threadworm - I had always thought that the blindness is a penalty for his sins.

This is very interesting. I like your analysis threadie, although I felt that Jane's own strength is actually quite central to the book, and the dialogue between Jane and Rochester suggested to me that they related as equals, despite the disparity in their social positions (although it is some time since I read it). I wonder if her strength of character to some extent subverts the implication of slave morality inherent in the tale.

An aside re the blindness - was reminded of Jane Eyre when reading Rapunzel to dd recently. I had forgotten that the prince is blinded by the witch in the tower. At the end of the tale Rapunzel finds him and his sight is restored. The underlying stories are really quite similar I think.

Going back to the OP I think we forget 30's was probably middle aged in victorian times.
None of the Brontes except Charlotte lived beyond the 20's and Charlotte was 39 when she died.

Apology accepted

I do apologise, Threadworm. I see why you thought it rude. I'm trying to avoid overuse of the emocion to indicate humour, but maybe I should have put it in here. I DO respect your exhibited grasp of the Big N, as ipanemagirl says, and the desperate undrgraduate thing was me being a bit robustly playful, though I totally accept it can lend to offence and I withdraw and apologise without reservation.

I love reading Jayne Eyre. IT's often quoted as the favourite 'girls' novel, but that doesn't matter. It is the pleasure in the narrative as ipanemagirl puts it,and the romance of pride and unrequited love. One can deconstruct stuff til the cows don't come home, but I try to keep Jayne beyond that.

I am, actually, really offended my your remark, Pan. The consequences of oppression on women's character is a worthwhile theme to put up for discussion on a woman's website. It pisses me off a lot that a man should sail in and trash the idea with pure namecalling.

And, also, Pan, why do bloody rude? Undergrad desperation, 'absrtouse'.

I have often wanted to discuss these thoughts about Jane Eyre, and the arrival of a thread on her on Mumsnet was a welcome opportunity. Don't appreciate someone coming along and abusing the very thought.

'''isn't it a good debate to have...

I don't think my presentation was abstrouse pan. The ideas are pretty simple. And isn't is a good debbate to have -- about the extent to which women's oppression has sometimes made them petty and bad? We tend to regard victims of oppression as somehow made noble by suffering. But the reality is often so very different. It is degrading to be powerless.

Jane Eyre is on my "try again" list for this year. One of the only books I have never finished - I think because it is tainted with GCSE English memories (turns out all the films rearrange the plot - how is that going to help you cheat?!?)

I have WSS here from where I was meant to be doing a course, bought the books, then couldn't do it - will read that afterwards

Will endeavour to get hold of a copy of vilette. I'm sure I tried to read it as a teenager without success.

Bink - Villette is my favourite, favourite book. I love the Brontes, and Villette is such a special book. Not many people know it I think.

The descriptions of the nun bits and Lucy out in Villette at night on opium are amazing.

I always cry when she finds herself back with her godmother and goes to sleep wetting her pillow with tears saying 'Quite tranquil' over and over or something along those lines.

Going to have to read it again now...

sounds like undergraduate desparation to impress with abstrouse presentation to me.