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Original poster

On toughness - toughest writers of all time?

109 replies

WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 16:38

With a view to adding to my TBR pile, I've been trying to think of the toughest, least sentimental female authors of all time, with an emphasis on midcentury to the present day.

The names which keep coming to mind are North Americans and Continental Europeans. I must have a blindspot for these fair isles, which must surely have their own tradition of stylistic toughness.

Help me out, please?

Who are some of the toughest, least sentimental British fiction and non-fiction writers - the ones who might be criticised as e.g. "cold", "heartless" etc because their style leaves space for the reader to feel their own feels

OP posts:
Original poster
WhisperTree · 13/08/2024 16:30

TonTonMacoute · 12/08/2024 17:34

Bowen was Irish,

Yes, I know. I had meant to add that but forgot, then it was too late to edit.

Love her books, and then of course that reminded me of her chum

Rosamund Lehmann

A couple from left field

Rumer Godden
Daphne du Maurier

Also, maybe Barbara Vine? Some better than others.

Great thread btw

Edited

Godden is a new name, to me - more research. Thanks @TonTonMacoute

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Original poster
WhisperTree · 13/08/2024 16:30

VosgesViper · 11/08/2024 21:18

No, she regarded herself as Irish and only sold Bowenscourt, her Cork ancestral home, only when she could no longer afford to keep it up after her husband’s death — they’d planned to retire to Ireland after he retired from his job, which kept them in England. She was devastated when the new owner knocked it down. Her work is often remarkably cruel about English people, though she’s brilliant on WW2, and stayed in London during the Blitz.

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That must have been heartbreaking, even for a woman made of the toughest of stuff. I wonder where she settled in Ireland, having lost her ancestral home? Elizabeth Bowen now swiftly rising to the top of my TBR pile

OP posts:
TonTonMacoute · 12/08/2024 17:34

Bowen was Irish,

Yes, I know. I had meant to add that but forgot, then it was too late to edit.

Love her books, and then of course that reminded me of her chum

Rosamund Lehmann

A couple from left field

Rumer Godden
Daphne du Maurier

Also, maybe Barbara Vine? Some better than others.

Great thread btw

tobee · 11/08/2024 21:23

This is a really interesting question and I hadn't really thought about specific authors although have thought there's definitely a surprising difference between literature of different countries.

Very much enjoying reading suggestions.

VosgesViper · 11/08/2024 21:18

WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 19:06

So she was, so she was. But she moved here and stayed, didn't she? So Anglo-Irish / broadly British, I suppose. I intend to devote time to Bowen. Diski rings a bell too - Britain's Didion? Thanks for the recs @VosgesViper

Show quote history

No, she regarded herself as Irish and only sold Bowenscourt, her Cork ancestral home, only when she could no longer afford to keep it up after her husband’s death — they’d planned to retire to Ireland after he retired from his job, which kept them in England. She was devastated when the new owner knocked it down. Her work is often remarkably cruel about English people, though she’s brilliant on WW2, and stayed in London during the Blitz.

Neednewcarpets · 11/08/2024 20:56

Yep, the Balkan Trilogy is the least sentimental depiction of a marriage I've ever read.

kitchendiscotime · 11/08/2024 20:06

Just seen someone else has recommended Olivia Manning - yes! She is amazing! ❤️

kitchendiscotime · 11/08/2024 20:05

Olivia Manning
Celia Fremlin

Two of my favourite authors, both massively underrated.

Original poster
WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 19:59

Popthetops · 11/08/2024 19:52

On my TBR pile I have The Balkan Trilogy by Olivia Manning, would that fit the bill?

Another Anglo-Irish toughness queen? Why didn't I know about her until now? Adding. Many thanks @Popthetops

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Popthetops · 11/08/2024 19:52

On my TBR pile I have The Balkan Trilogy by Olivia Manning, would that fit the bill?

Mercurial123 · 11/08/2024 19:41

Agree with Iris Murdoch

Lovetotravel123 · 11/08/2024 19:39

Lionel Shriver - I guess she is American but writes in the UK. She tackles uncomfortable subjects in a very honest way.

Original poster
WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 19:38

LMBoston · 11/08/2024 19:31

… and, of course, my namesake Lucy M Boston. Google her life story; you want a tough old bird, she was a top one 😎

I DO! 😁
And shall

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Original poster
WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 19:37

LMBoston · 11/08/2024 19:30

Richmal Crompton is massively underrated. Obviously the William stories are deliberately tough, but her adult stuff is brilliant and she has such a sharp eye — and tongue — for relationships, class, and social situations. Her ghost stories, especially, have a real “edge”. I want everyone to read her!

I had such a hoot reading the William books with eldest, I should add her adult fiction to the list. Thanks @LMBoston

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LMBoston · 11/08/2024 19:31

… and, of course, my namesake Lucy M Boston. Google her life story; you want a tough old bird, she was a top one 😎

LMBoston · 11/08/2024 19:30

Richmal Crompton is massively underrated. Obviously the William stories are deliberately tough, but her adult stuff is brilliant and she has such a sharp eye — and tongue — for relationships, class, and social situations. Her ghost stories, especially, have a real “edge”. I want everyone to read her!

LondonLass61 · 11/08/2024 19:24

WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 17:00

Thanks for this. I've heard of Weldon but not read her. Will investigate. Ditto Taylor, who is new to me.

Woolf - yes, tough, but too early for my purposes!

The names which came easily to mind were Hannah Arendt, Simone de Beauvoir, Simone Weil, Joan Didion, Susan Sontag.

Who are the comparable British philosopher-storytellers?

Iris Murdoch

StoatofDisarray · 11/08/2024 19:21

Pat Barker is tough.

Original poster
WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 19:20

heldinadream · 11/08/2024 19:18

Thank you. 😊
I passed the point of wondering whether I could possibly live long enough to read everything I acquire years and years ago. I'll be 70 next year and in order to read all my unread books I'd have to live to about 500, and have a few eye replacements too.. 👀

😂I find that reassuring actually. Who was it who said we need more books than we can ever read, that its like having all the medicinal remedies you could ever need on hand, so you can select just the right tonic for the moment? I can't remember, but I agree with whoever said that. Stockpiling is the way.

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heldinadream · 11/08/2024 19:18

Thank you. 😊
I passed the point of wondering whether I could possibly live long enough to read everything I acquire years and years ago. I'll be 70 next year and in order to read all my unread books I'd have to live to about 500, and have a few eye replacements too.. 👀

Original poster
WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 19:12

heldinadream · 11/08/2024 19:10

Sorry @WhisperTree I got confused, I tend to get very excited talking about books. 😂Lots of amazing recommendations on this thread.

Bless. Same.

I can feel a major new book haul approaching...How long will it take me to read them? Sigh.

OP posts:
heldinadream · 11/08/2024 19:10

Sorry @WhisperTree I got confused, I tend to get very excited talking about books. 😂Lots of amazing recommendations on this thread.

Original poster
WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 19:06

VosgesViper · 11/08/2024 18:59

Bowen was Irish, but yes, absolutely. No one else would describe a family watching their house being burned down in terms of a door ‘hospitably’ open upon a furnace, or write her brilliantly disruptive, chilly child characters.

I can’t recommend her more strongly. Start with The Last September, or The House in Paris.

Agree with Penelope Fitzgerald, Muriel Spark, Iris Murdoch, Hilary Mantel (Beyond Black is brilliantly, blackly cruel, if you haven’t read it, with a very cruel cameo from the ghost of Princess Diana). Jenny Diski, more in her non-fiction, maybe?

Show quote history

So she was, so she was. But she moved here and stayed, didn't she? So Anglo-Irish / broadly British, I suppose. I intend to devote time to Bowen. Diski rings a bell too - Britain's Didion? Thanks for the recs @VosgesViper

OP posts:
VosgesViper · 11/08/2024 19:03

WhisperTree · 11/08/2024 18:58

Sorry - I should have been using the quote function. I meant the Sarah Hall book. I haven't begun with Rebecca West yet.

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West’s The Fountain Overflows trilogy is brilliantly vividly realised and morally tough-minded, though because the second two volumes weren’t finished and were put together by an editor after RW’s death, a couple of mysteries are left unsolved, and plots unresolved.

VosgesViper · 11/08/2024 18:59

TonTonMacoute · 11/08/2024 18:33

Elizabeth Jane Howard
Elizabeth Bowen
One of my faves Colette
Susan Hill, perhaps

I wouldn't say Penelope Lively was sentimental either.

Bowen was Irish, but yes, absolutely. No one else would describe a family watching their house being burned down in terms of a door ‘hospitably’ open upon a furnace, or write her brilliantly disruptive, chilly child characters.

I can’t recommend her more strongly. Start with The Last September, or The House in Paris.

Agree with Penelope Fitzgerald, Muriel Spark, Iris Murdoch, Hilary Mantel (Beyond Black is brilliantly, blackly cruel, if you haven’t read it, with a very cruel cameo from the ghost of Princess Diana). Jenny Diski, more in her non-fiction, maybe?