Dorothy Dunnett - why has it taken me so long?

You’re totally right - I think I meant in terms of scope and reach of the series - the depth and breadth of DD 10 books immersive world and character evolution. But GH is just as meticulous and superbly crafted in a different genre type. I’d also add Regency Buck as a great historical example (though they all are really) - loads of well known characters etc all interwoven. I’ve got Spanish Bride lined up next. I’ve only got a few unread now, and am saving them, but haven’t ventured into the full on mystery ones yet.

Philippa is glorious. As is Kate. Love them both.

Really? Actually I have an idea of why but I won’t ask because spoilers.

Which should I read first?

Love Georgette Heyer and Mary Stewart so I imagine this is up my street.

The older I get the less I like Sybilla. Adore Kate and Philippa. 'My heart in a blackberry pie"

I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned Sybilla or Kate & Philippa Somerville yet. My favourite characters in the Lymond series.

I adore Dorothy Dunnett. I like Lymond better. I am intrigued that she knew what her fandom was predicting with Niccolo. Was she really reading along on Marzipan and Kisses (the major email list) because we went to some wild and woolly places with Niccolo. I didn't mind the big bad in Gemini but equally I don't remember anyone picking the big bad before Gemini was published.

DD is a class above but it’s all great.

I think Georgette Heyer is just as good as DD, within her own field. She was just as scrupulous about research; The Spanish Bride and An Infamous Army are as good accounts of the Peninsular and Waterloo campaigns as you can get. And she wrote wonderful supporting characters.

(I read Lymond first, at an age to be really carried away by the romance. I had to wait for Checkmate to be published, and then I read it in a day.)

Haha, that’s what I’ve been listening to for the past month! I went from DD, back into some more georgette heyer, then a few Mary Renault, and then Shardlake. Had an in-depth Hornblower session a year or so ago. DD is a class above but it’s all great.

I love Lymond too. Another in the same vein but much less complicated is CJ Sansom's Shardlake series.

Very happy to have found this thread! DD is my favourite author. I love Lymond more than Niccolo, though both are fab. I find the woo stuff a bit annoying - it’s more pronounced in the Niccolo books I think. I don’t think her baddies are as good as her flawed heroes - I agree the reveal in Gemini was weak, and the magical omniscience of Lymond’s nemesis throughout much of the books is a bit much - I prefer the earlier Lymond books for that reason.

if you want a brief précis odd everything that happens in Game of Kings, this is hilarious: https://archiveofourown.org/works/3146252

Lomond books are brilliant. I was entranced by them..

I'd very happily do a Lymond re-read at some point if anyone wanted to read along. I've probably read them about 15 times but never say no to another read. I read the Niccolo books as they each came out so reread all of them each time a new one arrived but that means I've only read the final one once. I did try to start Niccolo Rising again last year but couldn't get past the lock at Sluys. Not in the right mood I think, whereas I'm always in the mood for Lymond (as it were), though I am a staunch Jerrott supporter.

I read Lymond a very long time ago and then Niccolo quite a long time afterwards (and then had to go back and reread Lymond). I love them but I'm one of those people who can retain a lot of characters in their head. I think if you have to keep checking back to who people are it could get quite clunky.

Ooh excellent! I listened to all of Lymond and then Niccolo on audiobook over the last year. I’ve just got King Hereafter saved up. I loved both, I think I find Niccolo more sympathetic than Lymond but they’re both excellent. I did get very confused though, especially as with audio it’s harder to flick back through the book, though it did stop me speed reading and I probably absorbed it better!

I would greatly recommend this forum:

HOUSE of NICCOLO
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=1959591&share_sfid=226&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Etapatalk%2Ecom%2Fgroups%2Foutlanderbookclub%2Fviewforum%2Ephp%3Ff%3D226&share_type=sf&link_source=app

V knowledgeable people and they do chapter summaries etc, reading through the books like a book club. They’re not done with Niccolo though. I found it great to pick up on things I’d missed and to share ideas, though I wasn’t very good at keeping up with it.

@mimbleandlittlemy That’s really interesting. I’ve held off reading Niccolo because I so enjoyed Lymond and I’m not inclined to change my mind. I did very much enjoy King Hereafter because I think it’s an amazing portrayal of the medieval world, but I can see why people don’t like it- it does take considerable effort to get into it.

The trouble with the Niccolo books is that Dunnett found Anselm Adorne and lots of fascinating stuff that went with him - and then wove Nicholas in amongst that world - so where Adorne went, N had to go. And that was at least two books further than anyone should go, frankly, however fascinating (and it is) the struggles across Europe and Africa at that time. Then she wanted to tie the two series together - and that becomes a bit strained. There's also an, I think, shockingly pathetic motive for the Big Bad in the Niccolo series.

There was also a real problem with her readership - who were constantly trying to outwit her by the last few Niccolo books. With big DD internet forums, an American fanzine called Marzipan & Kisses, and the UK DD Society with Whispering Gallery, the permutations of who was doing what to whom were endlessly picked apart and sometimes DD veered off when she thought the readership had got too close to her overall plan. Then the last book of the Niccolo series feels very rushed; partly because she had a lot of ends to tie, partly because there was a huge gathering in Edinburgh in 2000 with lectures, talks, trips and a special banquet at Stirling Castle and the pressure was immense to get the last book out in time, and partly because she either already feeling ill, or knew she was ill with her final illness. I was at the Edinburgh Gathering 2000 and she admitted in one of her talks that some stuff was changed through the N series, just because her readership were pressing hard on her heels and she wanted to outwit them. I think that meant for a lot of people it's a bit "Really???" when you find out the series baddie.

Her editors were also slightly in awe of her - rather in the way, perhaps, of JK Rowling's editors who just don't seem to, well, edit.

Without quite the same level of pressure placed on her with the Lymond books because it was before internet etc, etc, she was able to bring those to their perfect conclusion and if you like it (I'm not such a fan though it's an impressive work) King Hereafter is masterful.

I thought the Niccolo books could do with tighter editing.

Try Lymond!

And let’s face it Lymond is just so damn sexy

Richard too, in his own way. And Jerott has his moments when he's not feeling sorry for himself 😂

Yes, it really is difficult to follow what’s going on in book 1. Or who everyone is. You just have to enjoy all the action. Once you get to book 3 the plots get more streamlined. And let’s face it Lymond is just so damn sexy.

I adore Lymond! I almost have up on the first, because I didn't have a clue what was going on, but about a third in I got interested. Once I had read the whole series I went straight back and started again!

I couldn't get into Niccolo, and gave up half way through book 3.

Maybe I'm due for a reread.

The companion books are very useful.