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Dorothy Dunnett - why has it taken me so long?

158 replies

Sausagenbacon · 06/06/2023 19:42

Now and again someone has recommended DD to me, and I've always given up on them, finding them too dense. But, for some reason, the Niccolo series has 'clicked' for me. I'm half-way through the 5th one.
I just can't believe how good they are, and amazing female characters are found in them.
I'm already worried about finishing the last one. Are the Lymond books as good?

OP posts:
mimbleandlittlemy · 04/08/2023 12:05

Treaclemine, I can PM you with who owns the house but it's a fairly major bit of plot so a bit of a spoiler for a 6 book series if put out in the open.

LovelaceBiggWither · 04/08/2023 01:50

The house is very significant but that's all I am going to say.

Treaclemine · 03/08/2023 19:52

I was reminded by this thread of the books, and I've just reread Checkmate. There was something I wanted to check against memory, and I spent most of several days doing so. Oh my goodness! What a delight.
But I was struck by the fighting landscape - the names of the places, older and much more recent, Agincourt, the Somme, that poor area. (And I wondered if DD had drawn upon WWI records or memories.) I didn't notice first time round.
And I'm left with a puzzle, a loose end, perhaps I've missed it. Who owned the house in the Rue de cherries, for whom the agent was keeping Philippa's gold? I think there was reference way back.
And first time round I didn't appreciate how good Francis was in that house with Philippa. (I wonder if Lindsey Davies has read it - there's an episode in the first Flavia Alba book rather like it.)
I read and enjoyed King Hereafter, but I never got into Niccolo, don't know why. Like driving into a snowdrift.

whatapity · 03/08/2023 17:23

Thank you @mimbleandlittlemy and @ChinHairDontCare and OP, of course, for the thread.
I bought Lymond ( Game of Kings) yesterday, so will start reading that later.

Sausagenbacon · 02/08/2023 11:06

Yes, I felt there was a lot of that.
But it does redeem itself, keep going

OP posts:
ChinHairDontCare · 02/08/2023 10:58

I'm struggling a bit with the Irish characters in the second Lymond book. I'm Irish and it just reads so Darby O'Gill and the Little People in my head. Is it like this throughout the whole book?

Sausagenbacon · 02/08/2023 06:27

Yes, she's the most surprising author I've read.

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LovelaceBiggWither · 02/08/2023 01:26

Sausagenbacon · 20/07/2023 18:07

Having finished the Nicolo series, I'm on number 2 of Lymond. I'm getting used to the arc of total incomprehension followed by unputdownable excitement.
Can anyone help me on this, though? In number 1, Tom Erskine fiance, Christian, dies. In number 2 he's married. Is his wife the widowed daughter of the widowed Janet Fleming, who appears briefly (with Christian) at the beginning of lymond 1 .

Yes Margaret is Jenny Fleming's daughter. Not Janet who is married to the still alive Buccleugh.

Mytholmroyd · 01/08/2023 23:12

Am sure it will! It's a while since I read the series bit I remember the complete bafflement in the first few chapters of GoK but being completely captivated by the writing and then again at the start of Queen's Play when they were on the ship - kept thinking where the heck has Lymond gone! But I kept going because I was continually surprised by the plot which was marvelous.

Sausagenbacon · 01/08/2023 19:37

Thank-you.
I've just started Lymond III, and there are 3 Kerrs.3! Doubtless with other titles as well.
I know it will be worth it though

OP posts:
Mytholmroyd · 01/08/2023 19:29

'I'm getting used to the arc of total incomprehension followed by unputdownable excitement'

This is a wonderful description of the book's arc@Sausagenbacon

mimbleandlittlemy · 21/07/2023 10:34

Whatapity - technically you should start with Niccolo, then read Lymond but there are 'resonances' in the Niccolo series that you will only recognise as such if you've read Lymond, and the two series interconnect. So I'd do Lymond, Niccolo, Lymond and that'll keep you going for a week or two at least!

I'm not a huge fan of King Hereafter, partly because (sort of Spoiler but the Spoiler is also in the title tbh), if you know Macbeth, you know it's not going to End Well and also I couldn't love the characters in the same way I do through the other books. It is completely and totally stand alone though, so you can read that any time you fancy.

LovelaceBiggWither · 21/07/2023 05:15

I've King Hereafter on my shelf. It's been there for years and years. I haven't read partly because when I do it will be the last DD I ever read.

ChinHairDontCare · 20/07/2023 20:46

Thank you @mimbleandlittlemy . I read on my kindle in bed at night before sleep so don't think I'd make a companion book work. @whatapity I have just started with the Lymond series and just finished the first book Game of Kings. It's hard at the start, I was flicking back to the character list a lot, but then the story gets exciting and you're off!

pollyhemlock · 20/07/2023 20:10

Sausagenbacon · 20/07/2023 18:49

Thank-you!
I've just listened to dd on desert island discs, with Roy plumley, from the 1980s. It's quite interesting- she'd just finished The King Hereafter at that point, and hadn't started the Niccolo series. She's sounds just as I imagined as well!
Has anyone read the Macbeth book?

I’ve read the Macbeth book (King Hereafter). Again it’s incredibly complex with a vast range of characters. My copy has a handy family tree at the end. It requires persistence, but I think it’s an extraordinary portrayal of early medieval Europe.

Sausagenbacon · 20/07/2023 18:57

I think either, really. But I'd be interested in what others thought.

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whatapity · 20/07/2023 18:54

Which would you recommend to start with, please @Sausagenbacon as I like the sound of these.

Sausagenbacon · 20/07/2023 18:49

Thank-you!
I've just listened to dd on desert island discs, with Roy plumley, from the 1980s. It's quite interesting- she'd just finished The King Hereafter at that point, and hadn't started the Niccolo series. She's sounds just as I imagined as well!
Has anyone read the Macbeth book?

OP posts:
Talipesmum · 20/07/2023 18:14

Sausagenbacon · 20/07/2023 18:07

Having finished the Nicolo series, I'm on number 2 of Lymond. I'm getting used to the arc of total incomprehension followed by unputdownable excitement.
Can anyone help me on this, though? In number 1, Tom Erskine fiance, Christian, dies. In number 2 he's married. Is his wife the widowed daughter of the widowed Janet Fleming, who appears briefly (with Christian) at the beginning of lymond 1 .

Yes, I think that’s right. There are a lot of margarets, Marys, Jennys and Janets around!

Here’s a character list, I don’t think there are any spoilers: https://dunnett.fandom.com/wiki/QP:Characters

QP:Characters

Those marked “(H)” are recorded in history (H) Mary of Guise, Queen Mother of Scotland, and widow of King James V (H) Mary, Queen of Scots, aged seven, her daughter Francis Crawford of Lymond, Master of Culter Richard Crawford, Lord Culter, his brother...

https://dunnett.fandom.com/wiki/QP:Characters

Sausagenbacon · 20/07/2023 18:07

Having finished the Nicolo series, I'm on number 2 of Lymond. I'm getting used to the arc of total incomprehension followed by unputdownable excitement.
Can anyone help me on this, though? In number 1, Tom Erskine fiance, Christian, dies. In number 2 he's married. Is his wife the widowed daughter of the widowed Janet Fleming, who appears briefly (with Christian) at the beginning of lymond 1 .

OP posts:
ManAboutTown · 20/07/2023 17:56

I've read both series - preferred Niccolo. Lymond came across as more historical romance targetted at female readership.

Enjoyed both though

EmpressaurusOfCats · 20/07/2023 15:52

Lymond, naturally, speaks many languages perfectly ( he shares this with Lord Peter Wimsey) but fortunately he doesn’t expect the reader to keep up!

True. While Dorothy L Sayers most definitely does - I can think of at least 2 of her stories where you miss huge bits if you don't know French or Latin!

mimbleandlittlemy · 20/07/2023 15:15

ChinHairDontCare - don't worry about translating at all. You can either let it go, or if you really want to know get a copy of the DD Companions which translate most stuff for you. And some of the stuff Lymond quotes hadn't even been written at that point in the 1500s, so you can add extraordinary literary prescience to his talents 😁.

Dunnett made no secret of her debt to Lord Peter Whimsey and his polyglot ways!!

ChinHairDontCare · 20/07/2023 13:36

Thanks @pollyhemlock, good to know.

pollyhemlock · 20/07/2023 13:19

ChinHairDontCare · 20/07/2023 11:56

Thanks to this thread I discovered this author and just finished Game of Kings. I'm delighted to read that everyone else just went with it, as I found it quite confusing, but was totally caught up in it by about a third of the way in. How do you all deal with the French/Spanish/Latin/old English? I speak French but was flummoxed by the fact it seems to be written in the French of the time so couldn't always understand it. I just kept reading, taking in what I could, but did I miss a lot by not stopping to translate?

It really doesn’t matter if you don’t translate everything as DD doesn’t ( as far as I recall) put any major plot points In another language. Lymond, naturally, speaks many languages perfectly ( he shares this with Lord Peter Wimsey) but fortunately he doesn’t expect the reader to keep up!

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