I just read a terrible book

But in 1986 Michelle had already got pregnant by Dirty Den.

In 1986 there was a storyline in Eastenders where Wicks and Sharon somehow spent the night in the same room. He slept in a chair and it was made extremely clear that they didn't have sex, and that this was because it's wrong to have sex before marriage. Around the same time Scott and Charlene in Neighbours were about to get married and I remember a similar conversation making it clear that they were both virgins. In 1989 two engaged friends of mine came to stay with me at uni and found floor spaces in different rooms, they again were both virgins and intended to wait.

Yes of course people grow up in different cultures and communities, and some break certain rules more than others. I was certainly having sex in 1986 aged 17 without a sense of shame, though I did about a year later tell my mum and she was absolutely horrified. But it's things like popular films and telly that indicate a majority culture. I don't like it when films will use historical glamour without taking on any of the attitudes.

To be honest I would have been better off not doing a lot of it but that's a different story.

Oh no, I had a feeling I'd be outing myself as a weirdo!

Glad someone had fun 😎

I was 15 in 1970 and I can tell you the 70s wasn't like that for me or my friends.

@CatJumperTwat
actually I've already got a thick cardigan on

I know it's not a cardigan, but based on your username I can sort of picture it!

I believe myth buster's did finally prove that he couldn't have got on that door with her.

How the drunk chef survived in RL that long in cold water I have no idea though.

It's ridiculously modern, though. I mean.... the very idea that a woman of any class could "gain freedom" from social conventions, like she wouldn't have to face the music at some point. Her whole life would be ruined.
But it's not even about consequences and what other people would think. She would have self-censored the slightest impulse, if indeed she ever felt any, to behave like that.

TBF I can think of some actual historical young women who played with fire around that time or before - sometimes ending up unmarried mothers, marrying either that man or someone else - but very risky behavior. I think my issue with believing that was the actress Kate Winslet didn't come across as quite young or naïve enough to sell that or as swept up in passion.

I did like Wolf Hall though got in on some sort of kindle deal - style took me back initially but I rapidly got into it and loved it.

I'll get mine too (actually I've already got a thick cardigan on, bloody freezing). I'm posting as part of the "Historical accuracy would spoil most fiction" discussion and within the internal logic of Titanic, Rose giving the finger makes sense. Lots of different conversations in this thread

it's a popcorn blockbuster

it really ain't that deep.

B-b-but we were talking about films set in old times that are spoiled by showing incongruous modern attitudes...?

I'll just fetch me coat 😁

Well of course it's ridiculous, but it's a romantic film, not real life!

It's ridiculously modern, though. I mean.... the very idea that a woman of any class could "gain freedom" from social conventions, like she wouldn't have to face the music at some point. Her whole life would be ruined.

But it's not even about consequences and what other people would think. She would have self-censored the slightest impulse, if indeed she ever felt any, to behave like that.

I'm in my 60s, and although I didn't grow up wearing corsets and layered petticoats, blushing and dropping hankies and pretending to faint, I definitely grew up with a deep sense of shame/judgement around sex and social anxiety around blokes, and would have had trouble behaving like that in the 1970s, let alone 1912. I wonder if the film appeals to younger folk who didn't grow up with these hang-ups.

Now you're going to tell me you're in your 80s and I'm a proper weirdo! 🤣

It's an old-fashioned gesture, but somehow I just can't see a woman of her class, at that time, adopting it. I'm thinking how shocking it would have been for my mum's generation, working class.

That's the whole point of the film though - Rose rebelling against class/gender expectations and gaining her freedom through Jack. Elsewhere he teaches her how to spit.

Yes, could contribute to that thread...the most recently-written book I've read is Wolf Hall (which I loved) but I should make more of an effort.

the copy I'm reading is a Penguin, printed in 1960. Actually older than me.

But it is lovely to see the language and attitudes of the day, unfiltered by modern eyes. In fact, that's a good idea for a new book thread

I love Monica Dickens and Stella Gibbons but there are some bits where you have to remember when they were written. My favourites are The Happy Prisoner (MD) and Nightingale Wood (SG). Funny, nostalgic and well-written (and old).

Ah, so it was in the lift! I must have got it all mixed up with the car scene, which is equally unlikely.

It's an old-fashioned gesture, but somehow I just can't see a woman of her class, at that time, adopting it. I'm thinking how shocking it would have been for my mum's generation, working class.

Kate Moss at Glastonbury shows more decorum. (Not knocking KM at Glasto, there's a tent I'd like to join!)

there's a bit where we see her hand against the steamy glass. I presume it's meant to indicate she's climaxed.

She does it while they're going down in the lift.

I didn't know it was anachronistic, though. I thought the origins of rude finger signs were medieval.

Really?! Did I hallucinate it?

I just looked up a clip on YouTube, and it's not included in that... but I have this memory of someone coming along later with a torch and shining it on the car and she gives them the finger. I don't have it on DVD to check and even if I did, am not sure I could be arsed looking at that annoying film!

Maybe I've just gone mad

The worst bit is when they're having sex in a car and she gives the finger to someone through the steamed-up windows. I half expected her to start blowing bubble gum and offering him a spliff

I'm struggling to see how that's the worst bit when it doesn't actually happen.

Just shows what an ignoramus I am about all things military, I was trying to picture some sort of magic trick with a rolled-up Good Housekeeping transforming into a sword.

haha yes, back to Molly Bloom 😂

"Beat me on the bottom with a Woman's Weekly!"