War and Peace readalong thread 2022 - thread 3

09/11/22

Volume IV, Part 3, Chapter 16

The French soldiers are starving and desperate, and continue to retreat as fast as they can.

I located her Tarahumara. Haven't a clue who she is though!

I'm impressed that you located the Polish lady, Fuzzy!

Yes to what you said about Dolokhov, SanFran.

You express yourselves so well, BakeOff and Fuzzy - lots to think about in your last two posts...and then Gradesaver pops in with the 'dreams of his old geography teacher' which I know is accurate but blunt and to the point - made me smile anyway 😄

What do I think? I think war is stupid and ridiculous and ultimately futile and nothing in this book convinces me otherwise (and purposefully points me in that direction, given Tolstoy's pacifist leanings). Petya dies because good, young men die in war, Platon was killed because that's what happens to those who hold an army back, Dolokhov is cruel but war means men like him find a natural place to practice their cruelty... I don't know it's early.

08/11/22

Volume IV, Part 3, Chapter 15

Pierre dreams about his old geography teacher, who lectures him about the meaning of Platon’s death. He wakes up when Denisov’s men rescue the prisoners.

I think that Dolokhov is bad 'un, there's no doubt about it. I don't agree that he was directly responsible for Petya's death, however. Petya pushed himself forward. It was the impetuousity of youth. I don't know if you could blame anyone, not even the poor young lad himself when it comes down to it.

Is there a suggestion that Pierre didn't want to step out of line to be seen to help Platon? It seems he might have been afraid to. Was it easier to keep his head down and keep walking? I agree that it was too much for him to process being physically and emotionally spent.

It looks to me that the soldiers decided to execute Platon as he couldn't keep up. He was too sick to go on and was probably falling behind. Like the merchant in the story, Platon was not afraid of dying as he was 'picked by God'. He had his faith in an eternal life. I'm not sure that he died to redeem everyone's sins. Maybe I'm being too prosaic. I think he was going to die very soon. He might have lasted until they met Denisov and Dolokhov, but he was really struggling and he probably wouldn't have made it.

I had to go looking for the Polish lady on the balcony :) She's in chapter 15. She surfaces as a happy memory for Pierre, but I'm not sure who she is (hardly Hélène!)

I didn’t read at the weekend (have caught up today) so have had lots of time to reflect on Petya’s death. I think Dolokhov is complicit, he knows how to harm people, in an indirect way, for his own perverse pleasure. We’ve seen it with Rostov. He’s probably like Helene and Anatole, in taking pleasure in cruel things like ruining a young innocent naive girl just for a laugh. He turned up and put on the big idol display and took Petya out on a risqué recce mission, whetting his appetite and making him reject the safe hero of Denisov. The recce chapter where they infiltrated the French camp read like Indiana Jones, tense and exciting. I blame Dolokhov for Petya’s death, I think he tantamount murdered him.

But then I thought Tolstoy has been heavily preparing the reader for that thought. Over-laboured it a bit! Was it Dolokhov? Or was it the natural course of events, Dolokhov just doing what he was meant to do, Petya acting as a naive 16yo does in a war? Was Dolokhov anymore at fault than Napoleon or Count Rostov for arranging his son to go, or the general who allowed Petya to leave his side and go to Denisov, or Denisov for letting him out from next to him. It’s just the natural course of war, same as the young officer curled up like a bird at the battle of Borodino next to Pierre.

I read the 3 chapters in one go today. Given Tolstoy starts with how human suffering works in a narrow limited window, that a man whose rose bushes aren’t quite right feels the same pain as Pierre on the march, I think Pierre couldn’t look at Platon because he has reached his limit of suffering. He cannot process anymore. We’ve seen Pierre shut down under immense stress (Dolokhov with Helene, after the battle) and he cannot shut down in this situation completely, he has to march on, and there are no comforts to go to anyway. As for Platon’s story and todays chapter, I thought it was quite obvious and on the nose - Platon has died for his prisoner peers sins, he is the altruistic merchant, that’s why Pierre instantly thinks of the beautiful polish woman on the balcony. And just like the merchant, he died just before he was about to be saved by Denisov and Dolokhov’s attachments.

I don’t agree that it read as Platon “allowing” himself to be shot, or that Pierre was specifically uncomfortable because of the illness.

Yes! Poor Platon :( I agree that he knew his end was near. He embodied the deep faith and simple lifestyle that Pierre aspires to. I'm leaning more towards the defensive mechanism as an explanation for his behaviour. He was trying to distract himself from thinking about Platon by counting the miles and thinking of the next stage of the journey. I hope Pierre and the others are almost finished their ordeal. I feel like wincing when I think of his blistered feet.

I like your idea of it being a defense mechanism, Fuzzy... otherwise, Pierre isn't the man I thought he was (or the one Tolstoy has spent 1,000 pages telling us he is!)

Today's chapter is short but hard-hitting, isn't it. I think Platon told that story because he'd decided 'enough was enough' and knew that the next day would be his last? I can't imagine a faith that strong - I think I might've said similar earlier when Marya (yes - where has she got to?!) was so steadfast in her beliefs.

At least poor Platon didn't have to march anymore - sounds brutal. Years ago, I read a biography of Mao Tae-Tung and the sections about the Long March were horrendous... I just can't imagine

07/11/22

Volume IV, Part 3, Chapter 14

Platon allows the soldiers to shoot him since he can no longer keep up with the march. Pierre guiltily avoids being with Platon at his death because the man’s illness makes him uncomfortable.

Thanks rifling for that insight. It makes sense to me. It's good to have 'the mysterious inner meaning' explained :)
It seemed like a tragedy for the man in the parable, but he went to his eternal reward. Marya was also all about accepting God's plan. (We haven't heard from Marya in ages!)

I'm a bit disappointed about Pierre's response to Platon's illness. It seems cold-hearted of him to ignore him like that. Perhaps he is distancing himself as a protective mechanism not too care too much if the old fellow dies? Or maybe he is is suffering too much as it is and can't take any more, in which case you couldn't blame him. The conditions sound grim to say the least.

I'm reading Tolstoy's Book of Wisdom as well and there is a lot about true faith being the ability to abandon yourself to God's will. I guess the point of the story is that God rewards all believers - although this reward is an end to earthly suffering and a place in heaven, worth far more than a pardon from the Tsar.

I hadn't made the link that the Kertyshikov (not his real name) was Platon so couldn't work out why Pierre was avoiding him. Pierre got such strength from him so perhaps he worries he'll start to lose that strength if he is too close to him and realises Platon is just a mortal, regular man, susceptible to illness and death like everyone.

I didn't really see the point to the fireside story and didn't get the whole 'death is part of God's plan' message above?

06/11/22

Volume IV, Part 3, Chapter 13

Platon tells Pierre an anecdote about how death is part of God’s forgiveness.

Just caught up with Petya’s death. Really reminded me of WW1 poetry: the idealistic boy lying dead in the mud. At least it was quick. And Denisov’s reaction was almost as heartbreaking. I think it’s going to kill the Count and the Countess. The Rostovs are very privileged, but they’re really suffering in this war.

I'm not so keen on the always cheerful/philosophical peasants; I don’t think Tolstoy can quite get what it’s like to be a serf.

Just caught up, poor impetuous Petya. So sad for the Rostovs.

Tolstoy was very philosophical through Pierre again in this chapter. This experience seems to have made him munch stronger. I can't imagine him going back to his socialite ways.

05/11/22

Volume IV, Part 3, Chapter 12

The French soldiers have forced Pierre and the other prisoners to march with them as they retreat. Pierre experiences terrible suffering and realizes that happiness lies in having one’s basic needs fulfilled – no more, no less. Platon Karataevv_ grows very sick.

Yes, that's right. I remember MB76's pictures. Petya hardly grew up :(

That picture was from Mb76's book, she is active on the Ukrainian war threads and did say she'd post a few more pictures for us if she gets chance.

The invincibility of youth 😟 Poor Rostov's.. this could finish off the old Count who, for some reason, I have a lot of affection for!

Just thinking back to those early chapters, when the 'young' Rostovs rushed in to be part of the evening entertainment.. there was a lovely picture posted about it.

Petya 😥

I totally agree, BakeOff. You wrote everything I was thinking. The poor child.
I felt his death more than Andrei's, because at least Andrei had a sense of awareness of his situation and he had experienced life a bit more. Petya was so young. If only he had listened to Denisov and stayed back.

I thought the same about the difference between Denisov's and Dolokhov's reactions to his death, Desdamona and how Dolokhov seemed to take pleasure in it.* *

This was a hard chapter to read and it will stay with me. For all that Petya was a minor character, his death stands for the brutal nature of war its futility.

I was very upset with today's chapter, I had read it at lunch yesterday and was overcome with tears. It was so senseless and pointless. And Dolokhov took such pleasure in saying he’s finished. Tolstoy really captured the pointlessness but also raw picture of dying in “battle”, no such thing as a heroic beautiful death. Petya hadn’t learned yet like his brother that those are bravado half lies soldiers tell themselves and others to make sense of the chaos of battle, he always thought he was in the wrong place but he was in the thick of it - you just don’t know until after. His poor mother.

The lead up to it made it much worse, he was so childlike, eager to impress, desperate to grow up, a dreamer who loved music, and so generous too. He should not have been there.

Such a sad chapter and really shows the difference between Denisov and Dolokhov.
Both proposed and were turned down by women in Pyotr's family but whilst Denisov continues to love the Rostov's, Dolokhov seems to revel in their misfortunes..

04/11/22

Volume IV, Part 3, Chapter 11

Pyotr behaves recklessly in the attack and is shot in the head. Denisov is devastated, although Dolokhov does not seem to care. The partisans rescue some Russian prisoners, including Pierre.