THE BOLEYN INHERITANCE

Henry being the King could have easily taken the Marquis-ness (is that the right word?) from Anne if he'd felt like it even if it was hers in law. He took Hampton Court from Cardinal Wolsley fast enough...

Yes, newyear, despite Henry VII's having been such a bloody miser.

Yet Henry was still her overlord, at the end of the day .

Elizabeth was also old enough to remember the execution of Kathryn Howard and of course, the death of Catherine Parr of childbed fever, in addition to the numerous women around her who died during or after childbirth.

I can't remember which, however, of her male court contemporaries wrote that she was just like her father and 'determined to be ruled by no one.'

In modern terms, the Tudors were chavs and certainly dysfunctional. Henry's legacy was 3 children inside his marriages (more outside) by 3 different women, countless broken relationships and friendships, violent deaths for two of his wives and his children constantly being disinherited and re-established in the line of succession. Not to mention he didn't exactly leave England rolling in it when he popped his clogs even though he managed to almost bankrupt or destroy a 1000-yr old religion.

No wonder Elizabeth I shunned marriage even at the cost of no children .

Yes I'm sure Elizabeth didn't marry for a very strong, deep seated reason! It wasn't just politics (her memory of her mother has always been written off by male historians who assumed that she had no attitude at all about her, but recently a ring which she wore every day (it was taken off her finger when she died) was discovered to have a portrait of Anne in it in a secret compartment).

(BTW that thing of making Anne Marquis of Pembroke as opposed to Marchioness, was technically and legally putting her on the same level as a man - IE totally in charge of the incomes and business of the Pembroke estates, even if she married. None of her male relatives could touch it. Not even Henry could touch it, legally.)

Well, Anne's daughter was of course a master of mollifying men who got on her case about marrying, because she knew of course that the law would be on her husband's side if she did.

And it's arguable that she came to equate marriage with death at a very early age, for obvious reasons .

Although yes women were powerful figures, they were still technically and in many cases, legally, under the final power of their closest male kindred.

Or Grey .

I can't bear Philippa Gregory's portrayal of women as total chattels. They weren't completely, they still had some self-determination. Mary comes across as such a sap, when what we actually know of her, is that she shagged 2 kings, slept her way around the French court before being either dismissed in disgrace or discreetly withdrawn before being dismissed in disgrace, comes home, marries someone she fancies who is below her in social terms, becomes the king's mistress, loses her husband, then secretly marries someone else she fancies without the permission of the king or queen. She sounds a right go-er. Not a pathetic bossed-about victim, like the book portrays her. And Anne was the unchallenged head of the family from her engagement to Henry until the coup that unseated her. She wasn't just a chattel, a pawn in the Howard family, she was an active player in the politics of the court, a player so influential that the only way her influence could be destroyed, was to kill her off altogether. In terms of who she was and where she'd come from, she was absolutely extraordinary.

oh I know, I know, it's fiction and I ought not to mind, but I just thought that the way the Boleyns were portrayed was so inaccurate, that she should have just called them something else. Why call these charaacters Boleyn? Why not just the Smiths?

she also had the problem of power going a wee bit to her head and acting accordingly.

I don't suppose old Henry's sperm was up to much. He probably had had the clap at one point or another... I read a hint in one book that her last (still-born) baby may have had a form of spina bifida. Not that we'll ever know.

The logic for calling her a witch for killing off his chances of having sons doesn't work though - a witch would have ensured she bore enough children to hold his interest and control him. Not lose so many babies he'd lose patience and kill her.

Anne had several stillbirths around 6 months pregnant after giving birth to Elizabeth with no problems at all and may have been Rh negative, unfortunately for her.

Her last stillbirth/miscarriage, however, was pretty much the nail in her coffin, the baby having been far along enough to be clearly identified as a male infant.

More was asked if he bore Anne any ill will and in his response he predicted quite correctly - her behaviour having grown more and more drastic during his tenure in Henry's court - that she would soon meet a similar fate to his own.

Anne was offered beheading as a courtesy to her rank - she could have been hanged or burnt as a witch. No defence allowed to those accused of treason....

Expat you have described exactly my feelings on Kitty Howard after reading the book; she was in no way judged for actions or attitudes and it appeared to be a fair reflection, given what you've just said - far more eloquently than I ever could!

She was terribly young - although we'll never really know just how young because the exact date and place of her birth was not recorded.

Anne was much, much older and more sophisticated.

But Katherine, asking to have the block brought into her room the night before her execution so she could practice laying her head on it.

That's sad.

Not to mention what happened to those convicted alongside her, Dereham in particular.

I enjoyed the Boleyn Inheritance but I preferred the Other Boleyn Girl. Mary's story is more interesting as she managed to escape the axe and she was certainly no angel either. I was puzzled when I read about Kitty Howard being 16 or so when she was executed - I thought she was nearer 22 or so. Definitely a pawn in the court of Tudor but then so were Anne and Mary.

expat to be fair ,the way I read the book is that kitty came across as exactly that - a well meaning girl who thought she'd get away with being a sophisticated lady at court. her stupidity/status as just a chattel came across quite strongly as the way it read to me was that right until the end she didn't actually believe she would be executed as an expendable chattel.

'Was that the one about Kitty Howards rise from wench to queen, and Anne's sil?'

If that is how she was characterised, that's really a bit sad.

Again there is plenty of evidence extant that points to Katherine's not having been a virgin when she married Henry. As well as being at the very least very foolishly flirtatious during her marriage and quite possibly unfaithful.

BUT from what history also leaves us as evidence, it appears she was a good-natured person and not calculating or malicious - just a randy, not terribly bright, misguided teenager of limited literacy brought up with very little discipline or guidance and then married off to a fat man in his 50s with a stinking, ulcerated leg.

It's unfair to assign 20th century judgements to women who were born during this era, as even noble ones were the chattel of men - even queens! And their perspective was very, very different from our own.

Was that the one about Kitty Howards rise from wench to queen, and Anne's sil?

If so, I loved it.

The Other Boleyn Girl film is released this year, I can't wait.

Apparantly up to the twentieth century, an "annabolina" was a Sicilian term for a woman of loose morals.

this is one of her best books - was very vivid in describing as expat says the comeuppance of a not very bright girl.

Also read a respectable trade (first of her non tudor books that i've read) and that was excellent.

Katherine Howard was unfortunately a not-very-bright girl whose family used her as a pawn for their dynastic ambitions.

My sister sent this to me, together with 'The Other Bolelyn Girl'. But I gave them both to charity after a page or two.

I just can't bring myself to do 'historical fiction'.

My sister filled me in on the plot.

Anne was no saint, but even Thomas More held no grudge against her at all despite her being quite involved in bringing about his execution - which Henry immediately regretted and then tried to mostly assign the blame for his actions to Anne - so I can't see the valour in demonising her any further.