War and Peace Readalong thread 2022

The conversation between Sonya and Natasha really highlighted how very young they still are. I particularly liked Sonya saying:

"I love you all...except Vera".

It seems slightly alarming that Sonya wants to marry Nikolai when they have brought up so closely that she calls his mother "mamma" though.

I didn't really understand that either. Maybe it was put there to be laundered? Or maybe she has a mattress that she moves around to sleep in the rooms of the younger children if needed (but none of them are that young!)

It’s not really relevant to the plot, but Sonya in the hallway confused me. My translation says she was found sobbing on a chest in the corridor. That’s fine, except it then goes on to say that the nurse’s dirty striped featherbed was on top of the chest and Sonya was lying on this. Does the nurse sleep in the corridor?! Why?! Why doesn’t she have a proper bed?!

Sorry that I dumped a comment back at the end of last year and then disappeared. I will admit I speed read up to the end of Part I over the last few days as had fallen behind but after catching up on the thread, am tempted to read one chapter at a time with you lot (for some reason, I thought we were only talking on the 25th!)

Aaaaanyways - I've forgotten how much I enjoyed this book. It seems so daunting because of its sheer size but if I remember correctly, it remains a lot of fun (I did enjoy the War bits and don't remember much philosophy, but perhaps I've blocked that!). It has reminded me of Vanity Fair which I read over 20 years ago now but is set in a similar time and is also a beast of a book. But I adored VF - up there as probably my favourite classic!

Back to W&P, I quite like Pierre because he's free from all the fakery a lot of the other characters epitomise (especially Boris' mum, Anna 'sorry, can't remember her surname'). The rest are a sort of indistinguishable blob of Russian aristocracy but I do remember it all becoming clearer and also, Desdemona's excellent summaries are helping.

Will keep up and dump my thoughts on the 25th so as not to drop any spoilers but thoroughly enjoying myself - thanks, OP!

rifling, ooh how lovely I always think those scenes of ballroom dancing in period dramas look like a lot of fun, you should definitely join up.
But I steadfastly refuse to believe that Count Rostov's 'Daniel Cooper' was anything like as sedate as the second clip, maybe somewhere in the middle

Great clip! Although I don't think the Count's knees would be up to that version! I imagine them being a little more like this:

There is a dance group in my town that learns and performs these types of dances and I feel tempted to join! (I think I would have to get quite a bit fitter first though...)

I thought the Count was camping it up but looking at that clip maybe not

Chapter 17:
After dinner the guests choose between the library or the sitting room to enjoy cards or musical entertainment.

In the drawing room Julie performs on the harp, then talented singers Nikolai and Natasha are asked to grace the guests with a song.
Natasha decides to press gang Boris and Sonya into joining their performance, but looking round she realises that Sonya has disappeared.
Natasha finds a weeping Sonya in a hallway.
Sonya’s worries are three fold, firstly Nicolai’s military papers have come through and he’s leaving for the hussars imminently.
Secondly, Vera has been a total cow towards her since dinner, threatening to show Countess Rostov the love poems Nikolai has written, and saying he would never marry Sonya as their mother wouldn’t approve and he would instead be marrying Julie Karagin.
Lastly Sonya and Nikolai are second cousins so Sonya believes that even if Nikolai did want to marry her their union would need to be approved by an Archbishop and she is sure Countess Rostov would never allow such permission to be sought.
Natasha does a good job of cheering Sonya up, saying Shinshin’s brother is married to a first cousin, so second cousins will definitely not be an issue. (And I wouldn’t have thought second cousins marriages would have been too frowned upon in 1805 Russia, wasn’t our own royal family horribly interbred in those days?) And reassuring Sonya that Nikolai has no affection for Julie. Soon Sonya is feeling considerably better and agrees to come and sing.

Later as the band are tuning up Natasha asks Pierre to dance with her and makes a show of flirting with him. Pierre is flattered and accepts, but true to form admits to being clumsy and untutored in the art of dance.

The highlight of the evening is when Count Rostov,‘mincing like a ballet dancer’, takes to the dance floor, to perform an energetic ‘Daniel Cooper’ polka with Mayra Dmitriyevna as his rather stiff partner, she ‘couldn’t dance at all, and didn’t want to’.
All the guests and even the servants crowd into the room to watch and clap along, whilst Natasha, overcome with pride and love for her father, shouts to the assembled throng to, ‘Watch Papa dance!’

This definitely feels like the calm before the storm.

Totally agree that Natasha is a little brat and the adults need to stop indulging her.

I’ve never got to the end of Gone With the Wind (the book, I’ve got to the end of the film many times because I fancy the pants off that cad Rhett Butler).

I read Gone With The Wind decades ago Spongebob but not you mention it there are lots of similarities. It always amazes me how keen men seem to be for war - until they experience the reality of it. I would say that young men now would be too sensible to allow themselves to be used as cannon fodder but then I look at the Russian troops massing on the border with the Ukraine and China eyeing Taiwan and I'm not so sure.
Thanks for the recommendation Columbo I'm enjoying learning about Catherine and Potemkin via the medium of Helen Mirren although I'm not sure how historically accurate it all is.

Simon Sebag Montefiore’s The Romanovs is great for dipping into about the various Russian royals. He also wrote one about Catherine and Potemkin (her main lover) but I haven’t read that. I’m a bit of a history geek about Russia.

Does anyone else think that the opening chapters are similar to Gone with the Wind? The men are getting excited about the likelihood of war whilst the women are more interested in social standing & who fancies who. It all unfolds during a party for the most well-to-do families. Makes me wonder if that's where Margaret Mitchell got the idea from!

I didn't really understand why asking what was for dessert was so shocking, although the way she did it was immature, so it must be more to do with how she asked, interrupting everyone, than what she asked 🤷‍♀️
I can't find The Great which is the Nicolas Hoult vehicle, but that seems to be almost entirely fictionalised anyway and more of a comedy drama.
I have found Catherine The Great starring Helen Mirren which doesn't score as highly on IMBD, but does seem to be more based on historical fact, so I'm settling down to educate myself on kick ass Cate. Maybe she'll become my favourite queen too!

I was a bit confused by Natasha's part in this. I thought she must have been saying something witty that had been lost in translation as all the grown-ups were so entertained by her. But no, just being annoying and precocious. I wonder if this would have read more charmingly to the original audience while now she just finds across like a spoilt brat.

I felt sorry for Sonya. I wonder if Nicolai cares as much for her.

Very good summary, Desdemona. I had to read the German colonel's speech a couple of times to make sense of it!

I'm impressed you have a favourite Queen, Columbo - I only have some least favourite royalty 😂
She sounds interesting, I know nothing about Catherine the Great, wasn't there a TV series about her recently with Nicolas Hoult in it? Is it worth looking up?

Natasha is very annoying in this chapter. Or rather, the adults responses to her are very annoying!

Natasha is a right bloody pain!

Catherine the Great was rumoured to have a great many lovers so it might well have been feasible that (in this fictional world) he may have courted her favour even if he didn’t sleep with her. She was a kick-ass Queen and my favourite.

I’m enjoying how characters’ social skills are atomised eg Berg, Vera, Pierre. I’m glad Vera has a love interest rather than being written off à la Mary Bennet. I’m new to the book but liking Pierre - naive but genuine compared to the scheming of Vasìly.

Natasha really is a spoilt brat isn’t she! Thanks for the summary Desdemona, like others I’m finding them very helpful for highlighting things I may have missed!

Chapter 16:
Down the men’s end of the table the talk of war is becoming more boisterous.
Shinshin believes Russia should stay out of a European war arguing that Napoleon has already brought Austria down ‘a peg or two’ and now it could be Russia’s turn. Whereas a German colonel present is vigorously defending the Emperor’s decision to get involved, quoting verbatim from the proclamation that the Russian Sovereign’s intention is to bring about ‘peace in Europe on a firm foundation’. He becomes very animated, thumping the table and declaring that Russian soldiers should be prepared to fight to the last drop of their blood, die for their emperor and think about things as little as possible!
Sounds like perfect cannon fodder material as perceived by the ruling classes.
One of the cannon fodder in attendance, Nikolai, gazes in admiration at the colonel during this speech and despite his youth and lowly military status is unable to stop himself bursting out:
“‘I’m in total agreement,’ Nikolay spluttered, turning his plate around and shifting his wine glasses with desperate determination, almost as if he was in dire danger at that very moment. ‘It is my conviction that the Russians must win, or die in the attempt,’ he said. The moment the words were out of his mouth he realized as everyone else did that they had been a little too fervent and bombastic for this occasion, and therefore slightly embarrassing.”

Julie isn’t embarrassed by his outburst however, she gushes over his fine words and bravery. Sonya however trembles and colours, no doubt all too aware of the dangers he is about to face.
Julie Karagin is taken with Nikolai and her image of him as a pretty, principled soldier boy whereas Sonya is deeply in love with him and has been for as long as she can remember. Tolstoy demonstrates the difference between the two girls depth of feelings by their reactions to his impassioned speech and their concern, or otherwise, over his imminent departure for the hussars.

As the noise level rises the redoubtable Marya Dmitriyevna basically tells all the men to pipe down at their end of the table, saying she has four sons in the army but she doesn’t go on about it, and anyway God may spare one man in battle whilst another dies in his bed. Which is quite patently one of the most ridiculous pieces of nonsense ever spoken given that the odds of dying on the battlefield must be somewhat higher than not waking up in the morning all things considered.

Natasha is dared by her little brother, Petya, to interrupt the animated adult conversation which she does by standing up and demanding to know what is for dessert, apparently a terrible breach of etiquette.
The countess does her usual performance parenting of seeming to be cross whilst actually revelling in how adorable and precocious her little daughter is and even Marya Dmitriyevna is charmed by Natasha. Seeing she’s got away with it the rest of the guests let out a collective held breath and smile and laugh at this enchanting little poppet! 🙄

That's an interesting footnote BakeOff, it's not in my edition she just says:
"I was the only one who told your father the truth when he was in high favour" no footnote at all. But I can believe the implication that Count Bezukhov slept himself to the top given all the rumours around illegitimate children.
And you're absolutely right that Pierre has few redeeming features in the opening chapters of the book, trying not to be spoilery, he's one of the characters that has to go on 'a journey' and I suppose those of us who are fond of him come from a position of knowledge of his future development.