The Unconditional Parent -- is this bollocks or for real?

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oreg - what to do about the book throwing? Hard to analyse from here. Usually there's some reason they're doing it - attention. So may be your mistake was go to upstairs and not take him? Or perhaps he's tired and you didn't get him to bed soon enough. Or may be he needs more time playing outside. I don't know what yo did that was wrong though - surely he'd being like a lot of 4 year olds and you did what most parents would do - bundle him into the car. What you didn't do was beat him or give him other punishment which neither would I have done.

Seems like a lot of people are interested in the theory but don't know how to put it into practise.

I would love it if those who have read the book and have faith in it could give us some idea of how they encourage their children to do what we ask of them when they really have to comply
eg getting into car seat, brushing teeth etc

I think he is right in pointing out that we expect our little ones to almost be mini adults these days.
Of course they need told if their behaviour is distressing others but we can do this by way of explanation. It does worry me that the motive for a lot of obedient/good behaviour is only to gain praise/rewards from parents/carers(or maybe out of fear).
Personally, time out/naughty step felt too strange for me to implement but so did controlled crying or taking toys away. I always tried to explain things first but when my eldest child hit 3 and I found her harder to control I found myself using threats to control her ( If you do that you can't have...we won't go to..) I have realised recently that this is wrong and stifling for us both.It's lazy, IMO.

its interesitn ginst it
i may get it out

go di haev been through it all wiht mine and vaguely give them stickers for random acts of kindness btu they dont relaly add up to anything, they just liek stickign htem on.

whne they are2 the whoel thign is SO mcuh trickier as they are so un predicatable and hard to control adn so driven by hunger or tiredness arent they?
now i have no system to behaviour - dh models lovely kind considerate bhaviour, and i try to emulate it

we dont hit, very rarely send to rooms, and they dont really argue and NEVER fight between themselves so i kind of agree wiht the idea of modelling.

lets face it kids get attidtude and belligernence from somewhere....

Haven't read the book or, indeed, any parenting book

Sounds like he is saying to have a relationship with your child

I have never used any punishments

Oregonian -- what a stress! I know what I would do, which is restrain my child if necessary, but how that fits in with Kohn's ideas, who knows? That's my biggest beef, he knocks down every other parenting method and offers nothing instead.

Bless her. Your DD sounds like my DS. He says'stop saying that' if we say 'good boy' all the time.

He does however like it to be noticed when he does something he is proud of.

Since this thread started I've read a bit of Kohn's stuff and I can see some of what he's getting at.

Like xenia we've never used time out/ naughty step etc. - just alien to us somehow.

When I noticed a teacher friend of mine praising her children for everything, I did briefly try it out on my then 2 year old dd. She said that she would only go to the toilet if me and her dad did NOT praise (i.e. fuss and say 'good girl') every time she went. She seemed satisfied herself that she had achieved what she wanted to achieve.

And I guess that's where I would agree with Kohn. The place of praise is to support achievement like you would a fellow human being, not reward like training a dog to do something you want it to do.

I agree with Franny. Children do not have fully developed brains. They can't behave like adults. They live mostly in the present and can't 'read a situation' or think ahead.

Many of us on here have described having neurotic / perfectionist tendancies or feelings of low self worth which many psychologists attribute to the emphasis on 'being good' and 'high achievement' in childhood.

Maybe we should cut our kids some slack.

I have come to this quite late, and haven't read the book, though am thinking I may have to go out and get it now.

So far, I have been lucky with my children (7 and 3), they don't fight, physically, they do disagree, and I normally leave them to deal with it between them, if it seems to be getting out of hand I will intervene and try to make them both understand why the other is annoyed, so 'punishment' has never been needed in these situations, I don't know if it is because they are so different in personality that they don't clash or if it is the way I dealt with DD when Ds was born, and then DS has taken her lead, I am pregnant with no.3 so I'm sure I'll find out.

I do discipline mine with 'time outs' although they are not 'sent away' for being naughty, they are told to go and calm down and think about why what they did was wrong, there is no set time they have to be there, just until they can talk to me properly about it.

I also praise my children for things they do that are good, if we have been out for dinner for example I will thank them when we leave for being grown up and allowing me to enjoy the meal.

Children are children, they have a different understanding to us, and should be allowed to express it, a child having a tantrum is rarely actually 'naughty' just frustrated.

So IMO, there are times and places for 'praise/punishment' but it depends on how you use them. DD knows the rules and understands why they shouldn't be broken, she also knows if she wanst to discuss something with me, such as 'why' then she can do, and I will listen, DS isn't at that stage yet, but when he is told I'm not happy with his behaviour and I want him to go and calm down and think about why the first thing he says is 'you still love me, mummy angry but still love me' so I do think it is possibel to use such 'punishments' without making the child feel unloved.

Like I said though I haven't read the book so I only know what has been said on this thread.

I don't think they really exist. I remember even the Walton kids having disputes.

Lately I've been sending the older children upstairs just so they will stop trying to wind up the youngest. Always very impressed by families where all siblings get along blissfully at all times.

Xenia, I wasn't suggesting that you had been or advocating the time out method, just pointing out that it's been around for ages under a different name.

Yes, that's the point. I don't need to read it. It sounds like how I am and how my parents were so it's very intuitive to me whereas for someone for whom it is very different from their ethos, just don't bother reading it because it's not for you.

By the way never sent a child to their room nor been sent their myself. People just differ in how they bring up children.

I certainly am not against praise but I do think there is far far too much over praising of things that aren't worth praise which kind of downplays it when you do praise. Also we shouldn't praise the child for something they can't really help or be praising the clever one and not the thick one when they're both trying.

Is that his name? It's ringing bells now. Anti-homework. Thinks shouting "well done" is damaging. Very media friendly. Is that the guy?

I have read Kohn's book, I could write essays on how much I hated that book, how useless it is...

And yes, it's very explicit in saying what a bad thing any kind of praise is, including even the tiniest compliment. This falls into the category of manipulating your children by implying that your love might be conditional (parents trying to shape their children's behaviour, what a daft idea, eh?!)

I don't do time out/naughty step but I do "go and sit at the bottom of the stairs" if things are getting very fraught, generally just to move a situation on a bit. I don't leave a child there, just go and talk to her about what has just happened and what should happen next and for her to calm down.
I should say my elder dd is four and I haven't sat her at the bottom of the stairs for a year probably. I don't know what I will do whne she is older, hard to say until you get there

I think the book has some interesting ideas but I can see how it might be demoralising if one's own parenting experiences were very different to this - it might seem very counterintuitive and requiring full on concentration and energy.
the aspect I don't really agree with is the praise. I think there is a place for praise, and can be separating from conditionality (is that the right word?).
I think praise can be an expression of love. and should be

I'm sure you had heard of the practice. It used to be called "being sent to your room".

I had never heard of the practice or name of time out until a few years ago. It sounds bizarre but obviously some people think it work or it wouldn't be so popular. It's certainly wise if you've lost your temper to withdraw yourself but that's parents being bad and needing a break.

I haven't read it so I'm probably talking nonsense. But why do children think time out means you don't love them? They might just think you mean they need a break to calm down and think about how mean it is to push their baby sister.

I said above and I repeat, do what you think is best. Follow your instinct.What is written about what he's said seems to be how my parents brought us up and I have brought up my children but I would never bring up a child by something written in a book or what anyone else told me. It would feel silly. If this doesn't seem right for you then don't do it.

Yes, you talk to them and then you distract or deflect. I doubt he (or me or my parents) gives children everything they want but that basic principle he's described seems to work fine for some people. If it doesn't work for you don't do it but never ever keep chopping and changing. Children like to know where they stand....although obviously if you're doing anything illegal to children then do indeed stop it.