David Copperfield Dickensalong

Actually Keith, now you come to mention it, how often have we heard Em'ly herself speaking, as opposed to others talking about her? Hardly ever, iirc.

I'm going to keep away from reading context or literary criticism until I finish the book as I am reading it for the plot! But definitely some issues there where I will be very interested to understand more about social norms of the time and how the characters were viewed by contemporary readers.

Well, that was an exciting section! I've noticed before with Dickens that he will meander around for a while in frankly quite a boring fashion, and you realise afterwards that he's been quietly dropping loose threads everywhere which he later gathers up in satisfyingly dramatic fashion.

Interesting the conversation about the infantalisation of women - I was thinking this about "Little Em'ly" who is spoken about as a child despite being a woman with a job who can walk home through deserted marshes at night. Her engagement to Ham felt very uncomfortable within this context (as everyone in the family insisted on referring to her as though she was about 7 years old) and as for her running off to have illicit sex with Steerforth..... well.....

Did everyone see that coming? You could see signposted from the beginning that Steerforth would betray David by taking something that he cared about in an act of patrician privilege - and the Peggoty family are so lovely that they were obviously going to be the victims of some kind of outrage. Dickens is clever in making Steerforth such an attractive rogue, showing us clearly how much and why David loves him while at the same time ensuring that the reader knows that he's a wrong'un.

I felt very uncomfortable with Miss Mowcher in her first appearance so was very glad to see her brought back in such a different fashion. "Take a word of advice, even from three foot nothing. Try not to associate bodily defects with mental, my good friend, except for a solid reason" . Between her and Mr Dick (who has grown on me slowly and was wonderful in this latest section), Dickens is proving to have laudably progressive views on disability rights.

I am going to go back up the thread and read some of the interesting comments posted previously - I think someone said that Dickens had based the Micawbers on his own parents which would explain maybe why they are such ambivalent characters - I don't think there's any doubt that Dickens means them to be absolutely awful, despite being strangely loveable. It's like writing them on the page is therapy for him in dealing with the feelings he must have had as a boy.

Also very interesting point about wide variety of marital relationships portrayed here, most of them unsuccessful or unhappy in some way. The Dr Strong/Annie/Jack is, again, extremely, uncomfortable, and interestingly Dickens gives voice to the concerns about the propriety of the marriage via Annie's mother who mentions the fact that Dr Strong has known Annie since she was a young girl.

Yes, really young - and infantilised. You're right, Piggy, eg the beautiful young Dorothea in Middlemarch marries the dreary, dry-as-dust Casaubon and devotes herself to a submissive life of serving his needs

It's very polarised with the love interests in DC, isn't it? I think Dickens had a lot of trouble creating fully-rounded young female characters. Arguably George Eliot, being a woman, was capable of considerably more subtlety (I do love Middlemarch).

I found an interesting research paper about Betsey T on the internet arguing that she was written as an interweaving of traditionally 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits, and this is what makes her such a successful character. She's nurturing and caring towards the people she loves but magnificently indifferent to everyone else, and doesn't give a fig what the world at large thinks of her.

I'm interested in what Piggy says about the presentation of women. I know it's for comic effect as much as anything but Dora is so witless. Especially since Agnes - who must be approximately the same age as DC? - is a model of wisdom and good judgment, and he knows it...he's always paying tribute to how highly he values her. But he seems to think of her more as though she were a parent than a prospective partner, almost always deferring to what she thinks.

I was also thinking that to modern readers, Miss Trotwood is an enormously appealing character - particularly given the compassionate way she cares for Mr Dick. But I wonder how 19thc readers saw her. Would they feel the same? Would she appear more of an eccentric? OK, the donkeys...that is eccentric, but we might not raise an eyebrow so much now at an unmarried middle-aged woman with strong opinions (although yes, sexism is still alive and well....). I love her, though - she's one of the best things in the book, for me.

Yes, he is just a creep, I wish David wasn't so polite to him.

Are we going to CH46 next?

Coming late today and don't have much to add.
Dora is annoying me too, she is so wet, like a generic caricature of a Victorian young "'lady". You just want to shake David and say Noooooo.

I do find some sections very easy to read and some sections so dense I can barely make out what is going on (maybe i am just tired when I read bit), but I am glad some people on here are missing things too.

Was anyone else chilled to hear Mr Murdstone is getting married again? - to a young girl 'just of age" I wondered if that could be Em'ly but why would he want to marry her as she had no money, so I think I am wrong there.

The Micawbers annoy me a bit too. Great characters but people are way too tolerant of them. The are the CFs of the novel. I can see an AIBU written about them

The horrible Uriah has spotted Mr Wickfield's problems with the bottle and wormed his way into the business, I assumed. Maybe with the threat of besmirching his good name if he protests? I'd imagine a respectable Victorian businessman would be desperate to avoid being outed as a hopeless lush (and the effects on Agnes's prospects in life wouldn't be great either).

The ever so umble Uriah will clearly stop at nothing. Slimy little git!

Should be I agree with Piggy re Uriah. Not with Uriah.

Agree with Uriah and I think the suggestion is that he may not be playing fair in relation to Agnes' father.

Yes, Knit, - good to see Mrs Gummidge rise to the occasion! I don't think you're meant to admire the Micawbers - I think you're meant to see their self-deception and their sponging, with the surprising fact they didn't sponge off Davey.

I have to say I'm a bit confused by Uriah. How does he come to be where he is? I think I maybe skipped some pages last month when they were explaining him?

I enjoyed this chunk so much, I could cheerfully have skipped much of last month's and I don't think I would have missed much. I'm not very good at reading long slow descriptive passages that don't add much plot, but I think that says more about me and my concentration span than about Dickens.

I liked Miss Mowcher this month, I did feel like the rich people were using her as a plaything in the last chapter and I'm glad that was recognised. There must have been a lot of people like her having to use their physical attributes in ways they wouldn't want to just to survive.

I can't bear the Micawbers. I know I should appreciate their resolute cheerfulness, his ability to never let life get him down, picking himself back up, her confidence and belief in him, but I just find them insanely annoying and am so glad David has never lent them money. Although poor old Traddles did.

And the scene when Em'ly left made me emotional, poor old Mr Peggoty was so heartbroken. And Mrs Gummidge, who we all dismissed as a sorry old soul sitting in the corner stepped up. "All times and seasons, you know Dan'l, I shall allus be here". And then when she was crying with David then went off to wash her face so she could be sitting by him when he woke up and he wouldn't know she had been crying.

Yes, I think as we’ve been saying on this thread, he was a human being like all of us and he had the frailties we all have. His ability to translate all those frailties so joyously into fiction was his genius but it doesn’t mean he was a saint. We all have things we’d rather not admit to!

.....meant to add, it's hardly surprising if poor Catherine Dickens had post-natal depression given that she was almost constantly pregnant or post-partum, and also that she suffered losses. And had to look after a large brood of small children, probably trying to keep them quiet 'while Daddy works'. Although he shipped in her sister Georgina as housekeeper at quite an early stage, who later sided with Dickens when the break-up happened

Has anyone done any homework as to the state of Dickens' marriage at this point in his life?

He'd been married to his wife Catherine for about 13 years by this point, Piggy, and they'd had 9 (!) children - including a girl, Dora, named after Dora in the novel, who sadly died at a few months old. Catherine had also had a number of miscarriages.

His whole relationship with his wife is a very thorny subject. When he left her, a few years later, for an 18-year-old, he behaved appallingly and even tried to claim that Catherine had never loved their children and had suffered from mental illness. But when he was writing DC, they did seem to have been happy at the time, I think, as far as can be judged from letters etc. Although he always seemed somehow exasperated at the huge number of children they kept having - as though it was nothing to do with him

Yes, the 'plaything' line made me gulp!