Has anyone read 'I Don't Know How She Does It' or 'The Rise and Fall of a Yummy Mummy'?

Xenia - most b-school profs I know are ghastly macho mysogynists. And there aren't that many women.

I really don't think our children have been very stressed by us both working at all. They had two happy parents and the extra money meant eventually we could afford people to help do the cleaning etc. The hardest time I remember was whenever we had a baby or babies not sleeping at night and that's hard whether you work or not. My brother's toddler was up most of Friday night. That's the kind of thing that makes you feel stressed, more than whether you work or mind children all day. Looking after a toddler all day for me would have been much more stressful than going out to work.

Anyway there we are. At least in the West most women and men have good legal protection if they choose to work which women don't in many countries which is where we should really be directing our energies.

Anna, you talk about sacrificing motherhood on the alter of a professional career as being "The price of sucess". And you are right in a way, but that is only because the 'market' currently accepts that price.

If as a society we stopped accepting that women in this country do X, Y and Z, and that men do A,B & C, we can start getting to the heart of the problem, which - in her rather delicious way - is what Xenia comes back to again and again and again. IE: We only end up with all the balls to juggle because we accept that as the way of the world, rather like our parents accepted the man's right to do bugger all round the house and refuse to change nappies. All the time that we quietly accept that 'we' have to book the holidays, do the doctors trips, hire the cleaner, buy the xmas presents and so on, we are stuffed. I can't really see the men rising up and declaring that it was about time they shouldered more responsibility so we could take a break.

Those of us that want careers as well as kids are getting there really slowly with flexible working and stuff, but we will get there. And while I've no issue with those parents who decide that parental care is the only way to go with their kids, I just don't get why it shouldn't be the man who stays at home in half these cases. Likewise, if parents decide they both want to work, then for sure let them get criticised by the stay at homes, but at least let's get the balance right: I've yet to see any of my male colleagues get berated for neglecting their kids by coming to work.

It is truly depressing when vocations are sacrificed, but only we can change that. The way you raise your kids, the paper you read, the MP you vote for, and the vote you don't use: they all play a part. We're partly the problem too and need to recognise that.

Oh, and I blame Hugh effing Grant as well, in some obscure way I can't quite put my finger on.

Xenia - in the UK, doctors, dentists and other medical and paramedical practitioners can work part time because they are employed by the communist-style NHS (which I quite like, even though I'm anything but left wing). In many other countries, medical practitioners are self-employed and must work full-time (and will have little or no maternity leave at all) to maintain their business.

Ditto lawyers, many of whom are in systems where they are self-employed. I have friends here in France who were talking to clients from the labour ward and back in court three days after the birth.

So advice on what career path to follow in order to combine interesting work with motherhood is very dependent on the system you live in.

soapbox, I agree

P.S. can I work for you

Xenia - where I grew up (outside the UK), quite a lot of mothers worked full-time as the childcare provision was unusually excellent, as was career progress for women. So a lot of my school friends had two working parents, a working-mother role model and saw what was involved. All my female school friends went on to excellent universities, across Europe.

But many, many of them have decided against a dual-career family. They lived through that stress as children and don't want to impose that upon their children, their partners or themselves.

Anna - I guess that misogynists exist just about everywhere - that doesn;t mean we should just accept their claptrap does it?

Well that's what I'm saying. I didn't actually decide on a career until I had one iyswim. I got a few jobs and then found I had a CV, quite by accident.

Could have done with some proper career advice.

"The clear reason for Kate Reddy's problems was that her husband was not pulling his weight and that she had turned all the "support" she should be receiving into the problem not the solution - none of her husband, nanny or cleaner were actually assisting her or relieving her of any responsibility, while she was assuming all the responsibility of being major bread-winner and major child care provider. Of course something has to give in that scenario - but most people don't put themselves in that scenario."

Interesting Anchovy. I had pretty much the same thought when I read IDKHSDI. However, the book did recall for me the early days of combining motherhood and career, wallowing in guilt and chaos, before I acquired a little of that essential solid pragmatism necessary for survival. Bloody good job I'd got through that stage before reading it, otherwise Allison Pearson may have unwittingly rendered me an awful disservice by making me assume it was impossible.

That's very rare Anna. Lots of professors are female for a start.
But on the question of "jobs in the middle" thinking about people who I know who do this, part time but good work. My dentist works 3 days a week. 3 of the Gps, male and female at our group practice work 2 or 3 days a week. There are lawyers and accountants who work part time. Presumably there are some jobs that are hard to do part time however. More women under 40 are millionaires than men presumably because a lot have set up their own business and sold it or run it which enables you to sort out your own hours although I'd suspect most of them end up working more than full time and loving it.

SSD - I think to be honest there are very very few jobs that are available for term time only work.

I'm not saying that many jobs could not be suitable contenders, but there just doesn't seem to be the will from employers to take on the hassle of employing fill-in staff to cover holiday times.

I did have someone working for me until recently who was on a 3 day a week term time only contract and it actually worked reasonably well - but there was a lot of pushing required by me for HR to accept it was doable!

Well then, Caligula, it doesn't sound like you'd have been that mature either to think about children and how they'd fit in with your working life afterwards.

Hmm. I don't know Cristina, when I went to university I wasn't really thinking of career - just the chance to get away from home, drink, regular shagging and my own place away from my parents. The degree was really just the means to have that fun.

Prof was American

AH well, thankfully the UK are a bit more sophisticated on the equality front that in France!

I think sometimes MN is geared at high flyers who've gone back full time when their babies are small

but there are a large number of us wanting to be at home when the children are young but still would like something a bit better paid and better fun! than classroom assistant/childminder/shelf stacker when the kids finally start school and find it's bloody impossible to get

thats what I mean about Anna's advice being really useful for a lot of women

(and I don't want to sit on the board of Tesco's, just do something more interesting than stack their shelves or work their tills!!

soapbox - when I was doing my MBA we had a professor of organisational behaviour who, during his lectures, looked at the women in the room (who had paid a very significant sum of money to be there) and said "what are you doing here? your role is to be wives and mothers".

Caligula - I agree about career advice but I honestly don't know how mature I'd have been at 16 when I made my choice for university (I needed to decide 2 years in advance to prepare for the entrance exams) to take on board the reality of having children. I have also changed countries meanwhile, nothing would have prepared me for that. And, surely, thinking "big" ("my life will turn out just right") is part of being a teenager, which is the age when most decide on their future careers.

But if they have a mother who works and manages full time work then they will understand what is involved (and a father doing it too). If they only see a housewife they have no way to judge. Another thing girls need to know is freeze your eggs by 30 or it's going to be harder to have babies if you put it off too long. Also if you have babies too late it's usually at exactly the wrong time career wise. But wise girls know all this. I know loads of 22/20 years olds as my daughters are that age and they and the boys all talk about work, life, hobbies, money, trade offs etc

Quite Caligula!

I have no issue with careers advice that looks to the future and whether one might be factoring in a family at some point (for both men and women).

I have a massive issue with careers advice that tells women not to bother with an MBA but suggests it is fine and dandy for men to 'bother'!

soapbox - you are entitled to your opinion.

But I do believe that it is good sound practical advice from a group of very experienced women about operating in the real world, as opposed to lots of the idealistic you-must-single-handedly-break-the-glass-ceiling-and-be-nothing-less-than-superwoman idealistic and ideological drivel that gets spurted at women when they are young and not yet wise about the ways of the world.

ssd - thank you.

I'd like something term time so I'm here for my kids during the school holidays

I work p/t at the weekend just now in retail and approached the company I work for to ask if they'd consider term time only, I knew they are inundated with students during the holidays so it's not impossible

they said "no way, sorry"

I've got 20 yrs retail experience and can't get term time anywhere

wish I'd trained as a teacher!!

I also think it would be useful to have advice which said "think how you are going to do this once you have children"

There are various ways you might decide to do it (go back to work full time, take your employer to an IT, etc.,) but i don't think it hurts to be made aware of real life.

I've lost count of the number of young women who confidently asserted that having babies wouldn't stop their careers but then they did. Perhaps if they'd had some inkling of reality beforehand, they might have been better able to combine motherhood with a career they wanted.

I also look forward to the day men are expected and advised on how to get their work-life balance right too.

I work with very high paid women in retail by the way and some mothers. Nothing to stop you sitting on the Tesco etc board and running a company just because you've got breasts.

Lots of women in retail SSD - why is it a problem?