Has anyone read 'I Don't Know How She Does It' or 'The Rise and Fall of a Yummy Mummy'?

No, Imnot27, she does not go part-time. She chucks her job in. And when offered a so-called 'part-time' option she explicitly rejects it because she knows it wouldn't stop at part-time.

And personally yes, I do object on a personal and a political level to a society and economic structure in which men often-to-usually earn more than women. It does matter. Fundamentally.

I'mnot 27, I think we have all agreed the book is flawed in a number of ways, but I think what I took umbrage to (at?) was the bit of advice you repeated in this post "What I am saying is that we felt that, if you can (which she could!) then perhaps you can give a little in your career, or your partneers, to fit your kids in."

I work full time; my children have a great nanny; they are happy and stable kids; the book is not real life nor indeed anything close to life; I can "afford" to work part time; DH could "afford" to work part time, but, and here's the thing, I actually don't think I have to "give a little in my career to fit [my] kids in".

Nothing personal - everyone loves a good argy-bargy on this, and whatever the starting point is we all end up arguing the same things!

Hello, I know this thread eneded yesterday, but have just read back and wanted to reply to people who replied to me! At our bookgroup, taking the example of the woamn IN THE BOOK we felt perhaps she could divide her time a bit more between work and children, eg maybe PARTTIME, as I said, as most of us, myself included, did. In the book, she did often cionsider downsizing to be with the kids more, which is what she did in the end, so it was an option for the woman IN THE BOOK! And the reason my dh earns more than me is the careers we have chosen, not any other reason. Am a bit at replies that don't really even read what I posted, but just get in big SAHM/WOHM arguement. What I am saying is that we felt that, if you can (which she could!) then perhaps you can give a little in your career, or your partneers, to fit your kids in. And why hammer on and on about why blokes earn more, why women more likely to stay at home etc? If the couple in question are happy, surely it doesn't matter whoe earns/works/childcares more?

Apologies, SSD! . Meant Soapbox. Multi-tasking breakdown.

Second you on those books WWW.
They really reveal what multi-tasking means.

As an aside,I don't find work exhausting (taxing yes,but in an enjoyable way)
What knackers me is the domestic drudgery (and hey! I like housework)

Getting my two children up,dressed and delivered to schoo and nursery on my own week after week (dh abroad)leaves me shattered before I even reach the office.

I leave feeling pretty good but once again,the regime of feeding,cleaning,bathing,stories and so on puts paid to that.

Must re-read that Pullinger. I have to say it wasn't quite up to the standard of her other quite marvellous books, I thought.

Bink, I liked Nickel and Dimed and Hard Work by Polly Toynbee.

Great thread and great posts squiffy. I'm glad someone's worked out why KR doesn't gel as a character, that makes complete sense.

Bink - 'Global Woman - Nannies, Maids and Sex Workers in the New Economy', edited by Ehrenreich and Hochschild is also a bit of an eye opener.

you wanna read Kate Pullinger's A Little Stranger it pees on all this bilge

Every so often Allison Pearson's writing is rather good: the toddler 'moods that arrive like tanks'. Overall, though, the narrative really is pants. Or even panst.

Exactly. She is in a position not to have to put up with the rubbish cleaner, the stroppy nanny and the useless husband. The fact that she does does not mean that no one can have a satisfying career - it means that having a high flying/time consuming career is probably not enjoyable if you want to do your own cleaning/bake your own mince pies/make your own birthday cake/pander to a slightly useless DH and resent your nanny for spending time with your children.

"angst" Doh! Sorry trying to multi-task with a conference call!

"Money doesn't sleep". Love it.

• which of course wouldn't sell -

I was just thinking that I should properly read those Barbara Ehrenreich books - esp Nickel & Dimed.

You mean anst-in-her-panst, presumably?

Yes, quite.

However, incidentally, Imnot27, if you've actually read the novel in detail you will see that KR quite explictly explains why part-time is not an option in the context of her current work. 'Money doesn't sleep.' And that she loves her work. As many of us do.

Hmmm, DH as HG? Sorry not quite getting it. Great bone structure but insufficiently floppy.

I tend to get a complete attack of the guilts discussing the KR phenomenon: KR has both resources and choices. KR, whatever anst-laden plot devices Pearson may have invented for her, was not trying to juggle a noxious mixture of a dead-end and poorly paid job, no domestic help and sub-standard and unreliable childcare.

Except HG wouldn't do the wheelchair bit, being no Daniel Day Lewis (pauses for momentary swoon).

I am so glad you've nailed my discomfort with IDKHSDI. In 'real life' (insofar that that has anything to do with fiction, of course, yada yada yada) a KR person would winch in some decent domestic assistance. I know AP tries to give her the backstory of why she feels she can't (presumably echoes of employing women like her school-assistant mother And All That) but frankly it doesn't work.

It did point up for me the currently unbendable nature of some kinds of work. I've just made various decisions to do with my own working hours, and my admiration for women not in a position to have this flexibility has gone up even more.

The funny thing though Issymum - is that that exchange, complete with rapiers & surreality, is straight out of a Hugh Grant vehicle.

I'm trying quite hard to draw some sophisticated analysis from that
but somehow feeling stymied

decafeskinnylatte, your post of 14.01pm

"SSD - perhaps some are PUT under more stress than others (work environment, inflexible employers, nature of work, etc...). In my experience, most mothers have a phenomenal threshold for coping."

are you getting me mixed up with another poster? I didn't say anything about stress (or have I forgotten?!)

Issymum - she was probably just well versed in bitchiness if she found the "right" reply so easily.

[Off topic] Bink: It was a bit of a humdinger although, looking back on it, very funny. The RL mother, whilst discussing the merits of our nanny whom she'd just met at a playdate, had said rather sniffily added that, wonderful nanny notwithstanding, she would 'always want to look after her own children'. Feeling rather defensive, I retorted with what I believed to be the knock down punch that, since DH had Multiple Sclerosis, I didn't enjoy that choice. She flashed back with the 'at least you don't have to feel guilty' comment and I was left metaphorically sprawled on the canvas. I actually can't help admiring the power of her verbal right hook.

False dichotomy anyway.

Nobody's circumstances are identical to anyone else's - I think that's the thing having children has shown me most clearly - I kept thinking I was going to suddenly find this great bond of women whose interests were all exactly the same as mine - but no - what you start to see is the endless endless variables ...

And you find kindred spirits for a few of your variables, and some others for some others, & belong to lots of different sets - but no-one's story is the same & every mother thinks she's a minority of one in some way.

Everyone makes their decisions based on their own situations and what's best for them/their family. Personally, I think it's one of the most polarised (and boring) debates on MN and always ends up with the same old stuff being said by the same people, often on numerous threads at the same time. That's why I generally avoid these threads.

However, I am supposed to be doing some very dull stuff this afternoon so have wondered onto MN instead of sticking to my spreadsheet.

I don't see WOHM vs SAHM being an issue I ponder much over IRL. I do think about working, about bringing up children, but not in terms of one camp vs another. I only see the "dilemma" on boards like this and I wonder if it's not artificially created sometimes. I can't remember ever discussing it in such black & white terms with my friends IRL.

Maybe if WOHM/SAHM is such a recurrent theme, it is because it is the most difficult issue women think they have to contend with?

it IS an unusual name.