50 Book Challenge Part Five

You seem very hung up on rigid definitions of genre.

No Cote I'm sorry I just don't see 1984 in those terms. The technology is only slightly more advanced than when the book was written. The Thing (Great Seal Bug) was used by the Soviets in 1945 foreshadowing modern surveillance technologies and 1984 published in the late 1940s. Mind control in the book is obtained through the use/destruction of language, media control, the rationing of items, the suppression of the proles etc. Futuristic technology is not at the heart of the novel, unlike good old-fashioned propaganda.

"Must dystopian fiction always be set in the future? Can it not also be an imagined past?"

"Imagined past" = Alternate History sub-genre under Speculative fiction

RMC - If you continued reading that Wikipedia page you copied from just for a few more sentences, you would have seen this:

The utopia and its derivative, the dystopia, are genres of literature that explore social and political structures. Utopian fiction portrays a setting that agrees with the author's ethos, having various attributes of another reality intended to appeal to readers. Dystopian (or dystopic) fiction (sometimes combined with, but distinct from apocalyptic literature) is the opposite: the portrayal of a setting that completely disagrees with the author's ethos.[1] Many novels combine both, often as a metaphor for the different directions humanity can take, depending on its choices, ending up with one of two possible futures. Both utopias and dystopias are commonly found in science fiction and other speculative fiction genres, and arguably are by definition a type of speculative fiction.

Definition of dystopian fiction
The utopia and its derivative, the dystopia, are genres of literature that explore social and political structures. ... Dystopian (or dystopic) fiction (sometimes combined with, but distinct from apocalyptic literature) is the opposite: the portrayal of a setting that completely disagrees with the author's ethos.

Nothing there that argues with what have previously said.

Or Post-apocalyptic. It's been a while since I read it.

The Crysalids is Apocalyptic fiction, under Speculative fiction.

All books about the future are, by definition, Speculative fiction. This is a more modern categorisation. Previously, it was all called Science-fiction

" Yes it [1984] is in an imagined future, yes there is technology that didn't exist at the time of writing, but that is not the point of the novel. It is a by-product of setting the story in a future land."

Absolutely not! Constant surveillance is an integral part of 1984, the very essence of it that enables thought control. The book explains this in very detailed ways - how dissenters can't organise, can't even talk to each other because every word they speak or write is watched, how they have to perform well at the assemblies showing adoration or hate when expected so that they will not be suspected and taken away for reconditioning, etc. Without "Big Brother is watching you", there would be no 1984.

Read about what Dystopian fiction is, not just the word 'dystopian'.

The Jews did not find themselves in a dystopia. A dystopia is imaginary.

On a side note. Must dystopian fiction always be set in the future? Can it not also be an imagined past?Or even at no fixed place in time? Can that also be science fiction?

Where does a book like The Chrysalids fit in to this categorisation?

Correction
Doesn't say it has to happen in the future or that it can't be a commentary on something that has happened or is already happening.

relating to or denoting an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one

Dictionary definition of dystopian. Doesn't say anything about lands, just says place. Doesn't say it has to happen in the future or any be a commentary on something that has happened or is already happening.

We are not talking about the word "dystopia" but about the "Dystopian fiction" genre, which has a specific definition.

You might say that Jews in Europe during WWII quickly found themselves in a dystopia but books about that period are not Dystopian fiction.

The society in Animal Farm is not imagined, since it is Russia changing into Soviet Union. Those are actual historical events. I don't know how else I can say this

If Paddington found himself living in Saudi Arabia or Turkey (arguably quite dystopian societies) that book would not be Dystopian fiction, although it has a talking bear.

For me 1984 is first and foremost political fiction, dystopian fiction. Yes it is in an imagined future, yes there is technology that didn't exist at the time of writing, but that is not the point of the novel. It is a by-product of setting the story in a future land. Must every book that is written at a point in the future always be science fiction?

I just wrote out the OED definition of dystopia thank you. You think that a farm where animals talk is not imagined?

It's an animal farm, not an imagined land. With talking animals. At best you can say (maybe) that it's Fantasy (and not even, since real events, told allegorically) but definitely not Dystopian.

Look up the definition of Dystopian fiction, if you don't believe me.

"Why do you classify 1984 as Science Fiction?"

I don't classify it. 1984 is sci-fi - one of its best known, most clearly sci-fi examples, in fact.

It takes place in the future (titled 1984, when written in 1949) and talks about constant surveillance with "telescreens" which was a yet-unseen technology that enabled the dystopia in 1984. QED.

Yes the dystopian landscape of Animal Farm is clearly meant to reflect real events, it is still an imagined land though.

"Something can be both allegorical and dystopian, surely?"

No doubt, but it would not be the allegory of a past event.

By definition, Dystopian fiction is about an imagined social order. Nearly always about the future (as a cautionary tale) but there are a few examples of fantasy dystopias. Still under the Speculative Fiction umbrella, of course.

Why do you classify 1984 as Science Fiction?

Also, in fairness, I know that I am guilty of bias on this issue. In science fiction and dystopian fiction I do not in the least care if laws of science are broken, bent or ignored. But I cannot bear historical fiction to take the same liberties. The past is fact (or interpretation of fact). An event either happened or didn't happen. I am a mass of contradictions.

And holding back because I don't have the head space for argument and point scoring - we will never agree on this issue.

Animal Farm isn't about a dystopian society though. It's about Russia becoming Soviet Union, told allegorically. It's a fable, if anything.

I might if the Nazis were portrayed as pigs who could learn to walk and talk.