steve biddulph - misogynist bully?

Nearlythree - what the hell are you talking about? The future or DS's past? DS hasn't been bullied so far. I don't know what the future holds but it won't be due to his past so far. Are you implying that because i was working I'd be too busy to pick up on his unhappinness? Is that me or all working mums? What do you mean?

Ruty - heh? It's not a sociological experiment. I've said your experience are relevant and valid for you and have coloured your choices. Same as my experiences my choices. However, I chose to limit what I said to my family, you chose to generalise to others. That's all. So, about those pants, on whose head are they really?

Right. So you don't think you would be too busy, say, to miss he was being bullied? Or deeply unhappy for some other reason? I take my hat off to you for being a far superior mother than I could ever be.

No, no concerns at all that DS's future emotional wellbeing will be due to my working or his nursery attendance. Yes, it's good to be that confident about that bit.

and of course i'm a member of the neurotic brigade too.

Christina there is no way i think all children who are in full time nursery care will be 'damaged'. You have already told me i have generalized the issue in my own head. I actually think some children will cope better than others, but it is impossible to know which children will cope better until the damage is [or not] done. I really support mothers' right to work, I really do. I am not interested in a SAHM/WOHM slanging match. I think nurseries should be improved and mothers' work conditions should have greater flexibilities. I think my personal experiences are of relevance in this context, because whatever Biddulph says [and i am happy to agree his research may not be perfect] our decisions with our children usually come down to both personal experiences, personal choices and personal beliefs. So saying they are not relevant in this context as if we are conducting a sociological experiment is a bit pants.
Of course, good parenting has a huge role, regardless of nursery experience. My decision is probably also based on my childhood. Like nearlythree, i felt neglected by my mum emotionally, though she didn't mean to neglect me of course. She was just always bust doing something else. And i felt she didn't have time for me. So that colours my view of how i bring up my own child - totally subjectively.

Is anyone's emotional well-being ever set in stone? Surely we can get screwed up at any time.

undoubtedly caligula!!! seriously! (speaking for myself of course...)

I totally agree with ruty. A friend of mine had her dd in nursery from 6 mo - she had so many behaviour problems that when she had her ds she gave up work and became a SAHM. With patience her dd's problems were overcome but she is so angry that she believed the pro-nursery propaganda and really blames herself.

I also read an article by Rebecca Abrahms (sp?) about how soem Ofted inspectors needed debriefing after the distressing scenes they saw in nurseries. Come to that, I could have done with it after reading the article, some of what they described affected me so badly.

I was lucky in that my childcare was mostly family-based, although I had a CM for a while, which I have hazy but unhappy memories of. But however loving the people (mostly my grandmother) were who cared for me, there were times when I only wanted my mum, and their cuddles and love wasn't enough. My mum did her best to make the special things, but sometimes she couldn't (even as an adult I was gutted when she missed my confirmation b/c of a business committment), but it was more the everyday things that mattered. I love my mum deeply and am intensely proud of what she has acheived, but I decided years ago that if ever I had dcs I would do all I could to be a SAHM for as long as possible. Interestingly my cousin has made the same choice, and like me feels society places no value on us whatsoever.

God yes, agree with Sophable.

I am full of doubts and fears about the future (to say nothing of the present) emotional well-being of both my children.

Maybe we're neurotic, Soph?

christ cristina you have no fears about his future emotional well-being and he is seven???

wow. we live in different parenting universes! i am viscerally envious of that. I cannot share your confidence. I know that I will be concerned about the future emotional well-being of my son until I see him in a secure loving relationship and fulfillling his potential for happiness in life as an adult.

Ruty - "I do think it is a bit facetious to say on MN that sharing personal experiences is irrelevant though." Your personal experiences are relevant to you. I questioned that they are relevant in this context.

Franca - I also noticed the same propaganda in the UK against working mothers and nurseries. Coming from a country where most mothers also work and children are cared for in nurseries, plus extended family, I take this research with a pinch of salt. I don't see adults damaged at country-wide levels because of working mums or nursery care. Also my DS is now 7 and I can stick two fingers up at any research because I have no fears regarding his future emotional wellbeing.

I had a look in one of SB's books in the library tonight. I was greatly amused that one of the research he quotes is an article in Reader's Digest quoting another article. Anyway, I won't spend any more time on this and I don't fancy the old WOHM vs SAHM reiteration of personal beliefs.

yes, it probably depends on where we live. However, I was never aware of such debate when I was in Milan, where nurseries seem to be the preferred choice of childcare (mind you that in Italy getting part time jobs is very difficult).

maybe it depends where you live. I know very few children who don't go to nursery at all. [not saying this is preferable btw]

I have a difference experience. I noticed that the "propaganda" in the uk is largely against nurseries. I always find I need to justify myself at great length for having chosen to send my children (part time - as I'm more or less a sahm) to nursery.

i see your point. My point was really that i meet with so many generalized opinions about why my son should be going to nursery [even when taking out the SAHM factor]that i think his stance [though it may well have flaws] is an important one. I found it interesting that i only found out about his research after I had started to form opinions about the effects of full time nursery on children i know. I do think it is a bit facetious to say on MN that sharing personal experiences is irrelevant though.

Don?t feel offended, Ruty, it?s not meant as an insult. You don?t want to generalise but you?ve already done so in your own mind, which is why you think this is a relevant experience and that it further proves the point here.

anyway sorry if i am adding fuel to the fire. Will bog off now.

If the research is good I don?t think it?s pointless putting it across. The same way you?d still want to read about gene therapy or whatever even if it?s not immediately available to you.

As I understood it, we all agree that the research is there and possibly shows what SB says it does, the question was whether he puts his point across in an unbiased and useful way (or misogynistic and bullying). It can?t be unbiased because he fails to recount all the studies he?d quoted earlier that had supported his theory that good nursery care is in fact good. He conveniently chose to ignore this research now or find flaws in it. I think it takes strength to say you were wrong before, forget all I said, I was a fool or whatever. The question is what if he?s blinded by his new theory and will finds faults in it in another 5 years? time? Oh, I forgot, write another book.

that is ridiculous UnquietDad. So if the research proves that full time nursery care for under threes is damaging no one should publish it for fear of upsetting parents who work full time? Of course working parents should be given more work choices and nursery care should be vastly improved. But just not to mention it is barking.

i don't think i had made up my mind before actually Christina. I hadn't read any books when i got into this parenting madness! I am genuinely going on my personal experiences. As I said, they may be worthless, and I have already been careful not to generalize]but it would be disingenuous of me [and i think of anyone else] say that personal experiences didn't affect their opinions. I don't think you can make that call about me tbh.

It may be brave, but it's pointless for people who don't have the choice. What effect does it have, other than making people feel bad?

Ruty ? your experience is yours and how can anyone counter that? I?d wonder though if you had already made up your mind that those children were aggressive rather than high-spirited and if you judge the same way children whose parents have similar views to yours. I think subjectivity and preconceived ideas are potential flaws in social science research, let alone our own, very limited observations.

agree with caligula and sophable. Ds is 2.5 and i get weird looks from other mothers all the blardy time when i tell them he is not in nursery. And this is from mothers who do not work. Therer is definitely this idea that nursery is good for them and helps them be sociable. I know i will get shot down in flames for this, but in my experience the opposite is true - the boys under three that we know in full time nursery, and a couple of the girls [as opposed to part time and with individual child carers]are more aggressive and much less interested in interacting. This is only IME, and won't be true of all children in full time nursery, but i do think a lot of what Biddulph is saying is quite brave in today's environment, and very necessary.

Hi, WTSS - I'm bowing out as it's going in circles for me!

TBH, I don't really disagree with any of the points about having a balance of childcare.
I don't believe all mothers should be the sole carer for their under-3's if it doesn't suit them.
I do agree with you (as I've already said)that SB hasn't provided a particularly balanced opinion, (because he has strong views on it), and that this can lead to scaremongering.
All I've disagreed with is that he is a misogynist, smug, patronising, bully and I still haven't seen anything that backs this up. That's your opinion of him, to which you are entitled, but you did ask for other peoples views.