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War and Peace discussion thread

168 replies

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 06/01/2016 13:12

For all things Rostov, Bezukhov and Bolkonsky - come in, pour yourself some tea from the samovar and settle down to debate love, politics, war and religion. Or if that sounds too hard, you can just bitch about the Freemasons or the BBC version.

Spoilers - what do people think? It will be a bit hard to discuss without posting any spoilers, but maybe we could write SPOILER! at the beginning of a post if it has something major in it.

I am 45% into it on my Kindle, but it's taken me 2 years to get this far! How far has everyone else got?

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CoteDAzur · 22/01/2016 13:47

£7.31 for a Kindle book whose copyright has lapsed? Shock

regenerationfez · 22/01/2016 13:34

Yes that's the one! Obviously I haven't read both so don't know whether it's worth the extra 99p Grin

NatashaBolkonskaya · 22/01/2016 13:14

The one I'm reading is Pevear and Volokhonsky which is the one I think regenerationfez means?

It is probably the best one available on Kindle. There don't seem to be many errors and it's been fine so far - apart from the occasional clunkiness which I've complained about before and the ludicrous way Denisov's dialogue is rendered. That's a relatively minor gripe.

I believe someone has edited the Maude version and re-russified (!) the names and it's available on Kindle.

regenerationfez · 22/01/2016 12:50

Hi, If I remember correctly, both of us who've finished read the Maude version because its free! I found it fine, although they anglicised all the names, which was a bit unnecessary IMO! I think the best translation is by a husband and wife team, but I don't know what it's called.

CoteDAzur · 22/01/2016 11:11

Hi everyone - I'm not reading the thread for fear of spoilers, but wanted to ask if you could recommend a Kindle edition of War And Peace. There are quite a few out there that are apparently very badly edited/translated. Thank you for your help.

regenerationfez · 21/01/2016 13:41

Yes I'm the same! I keep looking at this and the telly addicts thread. It's still on my mind even though I've moved onto another book!

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 21/01/2016 12:12

I do keep thinking about W&P despite having finished it - perhaps that's a sign of a good book as well. I think it's partly that I want to make sure I understood it properly!

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TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 21/01/2016 12:11

I liked it too - especially pointing out that Tolstoy was only concerned about the aristocracy. Wtf was with that quote about how they are more refined?

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regenerationfez · 21/01/2016 08:02

That was an interesting read.Thanks ☺

antimatter · 20/01/2016 23:11

I think this link belongs to this thread:
www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/what-do-we-love-about-war-and-peace?mbid=social_facebook

regenerationfez · 20/01/2016 12:42

See, I liked her in Downton until they married her off and turned her into a simpering do gooder.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 20/01/2016 07:23

I hate hate hate Lily James. She annoys the crap out of me in Downton and in Cinderella. She actually looks cross-eyed with vapidity.

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regenerationfez · 18/01/2016 19:30

Anna Karenina stayed with me in a way W&P hasn't really. I might reread it after I've had some pulp fiction to rest my brain Smile

I think Natasha in the book is vacuous! People fall for her because she prances about prettily and dances and makes eyes at them, as far as I can see! Only Pierre really has known her long enough.

sassolino · 18/01/2016 18:34

I read War in Peace in high school, and haven't re-read since. Anna Karenina was always my favourite Tolstoy's novel.
As for the surname spelling - it is Rostov for male, Rostova for female, so it's not the Rostovas family exactly.
Sonya is a product of her upbringing, always in the background, always a victim.
And talking of the TV adaptation, it is not bad, apart from Natasha and Helene, these two I find very unconvincing. Lily James' Natasha is so vacuous, it's hard to understand why everyone falls for her.

regenerationfez · 17/01/2016 22:41

Apologies for all the typos in that post! My tablet always puts random c's everywhere and I have to change them!!!

I have no idea how they are going to fit the rest of the book into the TV adaptation. I'm presuming they are going to need most of the final episode for the epilogue so that's 2 and a half episodes at most for the whole of the 1812 business, Moscow, Helene, Andre, Mary, everything.

regenerationfez · 17/01/2016 20:56

Yes that's true about Pierre. He's busy philosophising while everyone else is at war, then ends up doing the heroics in Moscow. I think maybe it is to show Pierre as a hero. Tolstoy is funny. He has such a long book, but some things just seem very jumpy in their character development.

I breadvsomewhere that Tolstoy vwanted Natasha to bge his ideal nwoman. That all her cattractions cwere just leading to her true vocation as a wife and mother. I'm not sure how much I agree with that, as as you say, he mocks her a bit and says she's not very likeable in society. Yes, Helene is killed off in such a horrible manner, but she seems much happier and has much more fun than Natasha. I'm not sure what he's trying to say. That too much cavorting about always ends in tears?

I don't think Natasha does love Pierre. She has known him since childhood so feels secure. There is a lot about Pierre's love at the start of their relationship but nothing from her until she has the children. That's what I mean. She is in love with being in love. Not really any person in particular.

I liked Kutzov too. I kind of knew that was what happened, but yes he knew how to spot his advantages and use them. He had the courage of his convictions.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 17/01/2016 20:26

Oh, someone else I like is the old field marshal, Kutozov. He saw everything so clearly - the Russians didn't need to fight, they just had to make sure the French fled properly. And then he was reviled by history for it.

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TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 17/01/2016 20:20

Helene was an interesting character too. Pierre thought she was so stupid, but she managed to establish her credentials as the most brilliant hostess in society. I noticed that Tolstoy later has a dig at clever women, comparing them to 'real women' like Natasha, who doesn't understand any of her husband's projects but just feels they are important. So what was the point in mocking Helene for being stupid? Or is the point that she isn't stupid at all, Pierre just thinks she is? She dies horribly as well, with the botched abortion - clearly the unvirtuous woman getting her comeuppance. Her concept of being able to get divorced just because she wants to is very modern, and why shouldn't she? She and Pierre were clearly miserable together. It's hard to make out whether Tolstoy approves or disapproves of divorce. I'm assuming he disapproves, because he kills Helene off, but equally, he may have had to kill her off so that Pierre could be free to marry Natasha. He portrays Helene as going around saying she doesn't know which of her lovers she wants to marry very disingenuously, which distracts everyone from the divorce issue. Is the real point that society may be distracted, but Helene is still married in God's eyes? Not sure.

Do you think Natasha is actually really attracted to Pierre? It almost reads a bit like a rebound relationship - she was flattered by Andrew's proposal, but really, she always seemed a bit nervous of their relationship, and then she fell hook, line and sinker for Anatole - and that was definitely a very physical attraction. I suppose she and Pierre seem to have this very close understanding of each other - Pierre helps Natasha to realise that she is not to blame for being alive when Andrew is dead.

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TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 17/01/2016 19:49

I am glad I read it too, but I ended up with utter brain freeze afterwards and it took me a day to recover!

Sonya - I totally agree that the 'sterile flower' bit was horrible of Natasha and Mary! She has no choice but to stay there, because she has no money of her own, and what else could she have done? There was no escape for her, and I think Nicholas treated her shabbily. Okay, he fell in love with Mary, but he didn't need to keep Sonya living in his house as an unpaid companion/governess/housekeeper type. He could have arranged for her to live with Natasha or Vera or somebody, rather than under his roof helping raise his children.

Petya - it was so sad! He was such a typical boy - they should never have let him enlist in the first place.

Natasha - she did grow on me. I liked the fact that she insisted that the wounded come in the carts with them, and she was lovely to Andrew when he was dying. I don't think she and Andrew really knew each other either - in a lot of ways she knew Pierre a lot better. I didn't like the description of her jealousy as a wife either, and the way that Pierre was too afraid to even talk to other women. Pierre was a good and virtuous man, he wasn't going to start flirting with other women anyway!

In general I thought it was very interesting that neither Andrew nor Pierre do anything much in the war. Pierre's heroic credentials are established very quickly - he saves the little girl, and he saves the woman from being raped. I think that's Tolstoy making the point that Pierre is a hero, but it was very rushed (the only thing that is rushed!). But after that he is just a prisoner, and Andrew was just another soldier. Neither of them achieve anything - it's all about their spiritual epiphanies. Andrew finds that life is beautiful and happiness is possible, and he forgives Anatole and Natasha. Pierre discovers that his wealth has been inhibiting him all the time and that all the flailing around with different ideals (Freemasons, freeing his serfs etc, the weird stuff with the number of the Beast and making up crap to say he ought to kill Napoleon) was just because he didn't know where he was going in life and what he needed was a good spell locked up in a shed as a prisoner of war. Can you tell I would love to try having endless money and see if I felt a spiritual malaise as a result?

Posting this now as DD is insisting on sitting on my arm and I'm sure she's going to accidentally delete it all!

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regenerationfez · 17/01/2016 19:00

Oh yes, I'm glad I read it, even just to challenge my brain. I was scared of starting it and read ballnbthe preparatory stuff before daring to start! There are difficult bits to it but most of it is very readable. happy did you see the characters differently, reading it as a 14 year old to reading it now? I would imagine you would see Natasha for example from the perspective of a teenage girl and when older you would see it fromnthe perspective of an adult. I always thought that when I re-read Catcher in the Rye. When I was a teenager, he was a misunderstood rebel without a cause, when I re-read it as an adult I found him incredibly irritating kid!

HappydaysArehere · 17/01/2016 17:44

I have loved W & P since the age of 14. I asked our Literature teacher which novel was the greatest ever written. She answered "that is a difficult question but if pushed I would say W & P". I then asked my dad if I could have it for Christmas. I still have the Everyman edition in three volumes which is a great way to read it, volume by volume and in no hurry. It is easy to read but you must not rush. I was definitely in love with Peter (or Pierre). When I finished it at the end of the school holidays I wanted to begin it again and in true teenage emotional overdrive I declared that now I had read the greatest novel ever I only had disappointment ahead as I read other books......that is until I opened another Christmas gift..Gone With The Wind. I reread W & P two years ago and still loved it with a passion. So much so that I couldn't leave that Russian world and reread Anna Karenina which I never enjoyed nearly as much as W & P. I disliked Anna and preferred her husband. Then I found Ressurection about a juror who found the defendant in court was someone he had let down years before. Tolstoy wrote it to fund the escape to Canada of a persecuted religious group.
Sorry this is so long but just trying to encourage would be readers to not be put off by the idea of a slightly longer book. Lots of books are 800 or 900 pages long and this is around 1200. Three volumes makes it easy.

SonyaAtTheSamovar · 16/01/2016 23:11

Spoiler

Thank you for noticing me behind this samovar!

I felt for Sonya. The modern Sonya would just go off travelling for a while and find herself getting over the heartbreak. But to be there forever in the family. What a fate.

regenerationfez · 16/01/2016 20:34

Spoilers galore!

Right, Here is what I thought: I did enjoy reading it, although I don't think I'll be reading it again in a hurry. The characters really stayed with me, even the ones I didn't like virtually the entire Rostov clan!!. I suppose that's the sign of a good book, the emotional connection to the characters, even if the emotion is dislike!

The theorising I found incredibly difficult and I didn't think it added anything much to the story. This might have been my fault as it didnt register with me at all and I just wanted it to end. The fictional mixed with facts account of the wars were very descriptive and truly portrayed the futility and horror of war for soldiers and civilians.

Right. The Rostovas. Old count and Countess were incredibly indulgent of their children, to the extent of being neglectful. They did not prepare their children for life at all. You could say that this was the way the aristocracy was, but the fact that when they come into contact with others of the same background, they also find them to be somewhat lacking in common sense shows they are particularly sheltered and pampered. When Petya goes to war, he has the same attitude as Nicholas has that it's all a big adventure and he can't be killed because he's so charming. I think it was Denisov who recalled his failure to follow instructions and gung ho attitude. It was what got him killed. The only child who gets out normally is Vera, the least loved of the children, until Nicholas steps upnto the plate after his father's death and years away from the family at war.

I haven't changed my opinion of Natasha that she is an incredibly addictive personality. For much of the book, she is led by her addiction to falling in love and being the centre of drama. She doesn't love Andre. How could she? She saw him briefly for a matter of weeks, had a year without contact before breaking off her engagement and then didn't see him again for years until he is mortally wounded and dying. It seems as if this is yet another drama in her life soap opera. Sonya also nurses the sick soldiers but Natasha gets to be the grieving widow who nursed her one true love. Her pleasure in seeing her thin body and the fuss everyone was making is evidence of this. Her quick and sudden love for Pierre, as the Princess thought also shows this.

When she is married, she just replaces one addiction for another. She becomes obsessed with having the perfect family. She has to completely hideaway from her beauty, her singing and dancing, just in case she attracts other men and breaks up her perfect family. She doesn't trust herself or anyone es
lse she or Pierre might come into contact with. She micro manages Pierre and doesnt dare have a thought in her head that is not her husbands. I believe this is as a result of her parents utter failure to protect her from herself and from the men who seemed bewitched by her at too young an age.

For all of the Old Prince Nicholas's faults, you get the feeling he wanted to protect his children. I got the feeling he would have stopped Mary marrying Anatoly and he stopped Andre marrying Natasha because he saw a very young flighty girl from a family that was on the brink of self made financial ruin. She would have had to be responsible for little Nicholas as well as a large estate. The Rostov's all seem to live in a fairytale. They did nothing to protect their children at all.

Sonya. Poor Sonya. I feel terrible for her. She's such a sweet girl. She just gets on with it, doing what's expected of her, being in love with Nicholas to the detriment of her own unhappiness. She is right to display envy of Natasha, who has had to do somlittle but gets so much love and attention. Natasha and Mary even virtually dehumanise her by calling her a 'sterile flower' to ease their own guilt, leaving her to care for the old Countess Rostova who also treats her with contempt while they are busy with their own children and lives.

Cor that was a long post! I just had to get it off my chest! I might be completely wrong about all of this. I might well have missed huge chunks of important plot points and nuanxes because it wascso bloodly long! I'm looking forward to seeing what the TV picks up!

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 16/01/2016 20:10

Yay for another finishee! Excellent decision not to read Epilogue 2. So what did you think? Best book ever or a bit meh?

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regenerationfez · 16/01/2016 18:41

Well I have a broken foot so am being forced to sit around with my feet up so found it fairly easy to find the timeGrin