How would you handle this behaviour?

He does always apologise after an offload and says it’s because he’s tired so he’s very self aware I know he can’t help it...When I’ve asked him he says he can’t help it and his brain is telling him to do it, he’s very good at explaining and apologising to be fair.

I would also caution to be a bit sceptical here. I don't actually think this is self-awareness, I think it is a very good observation from him about which answers you find acceptable. (I suspect also his "testing" when there are visitors around might be because you perhaps feel even more reluctant to discipline in front of other people, and he is curious about this - possibly not even a conscious decision by him).

Of course he is a child, and he likely believes what he is saying is the full explanation, I don't doubt your belief that he is being sincere. However, it is highly unlikely that he truly can't help it, even if he thinks he can't. And he is getting to an age where being tired is not a reasonable excuse for taking your feelings out on others. "My brain makes me" is not really an explanation, it's a description of what it feels like to have an impulse. But we all have impulses and we have to learn how to inhibit them when they would hurt someone or be inappropriate. Everyone slips up sometimes, and that's OK, but I think he's seeing apologising as completely erasing the behaviour and that is not really right. An apology is good, but it doesn't mean a lot if he's not making any effort to change the way he behaves in the first place. This might be a helpful discussion to have now that he is getting older.

He might feel as though it is hard to stop - that's OK, you should be able to work with that. Maybe look at other outlets for his feelings as some others on this thread have suggested. But every primary school I've ever heard of, unless perhaps you are in a non-English speaking country, treats "fuck" as an extremely serious word and would not accept it at all, so I suspect that you would know about it if he was literally unable to prevent himself from saying it. What I mean is, it's not a verbal tic, it's not like when somebody has Tourettes Disorder. Words can slip out without thinking but that is not the same thing as "I can't help it".

It might be that he is switching "filters" with the language he uses in front of teachers vs friends vs at home, as well, and what he means is that he doesn't automatically filter the word at home - this is completely normal, every child does this, whether you're talking regional accents or slang or swearing. I think he is likely perfectly capable of filtering the word out and it's mainly that he has learnt he doesn't need to at home. So if you change this, he will probably have some slips and if he is genuinely embarrassed and instantly recognises that it's a mistake, then it would be OK to let it go with a raised eyebrow or saying his name, but in itself it's not really enough of a reaction to get him to actually change the behaviour.

Something else which helps me is to think about how I tend to react to safety related things, because this is usually clearer even if empathy sometimes gets in the way.

So for example, in the car I always insist on seatbelts. It's not a big battleground nor is it a struggle, probably because we've always insisted on it, so they just take it for granted - but I can't think of a scenario where I would just ignore a child not wearing a seatbelt, or let it go. I'd address it every time as soon as I became aware of it. And that's what you need to do for things like swearing as well if you want it to stop, bearing in mind that of course if you're changing what your tolerance is, it will take time for DC to adjust, but that doesn't mean that you should let it go. Sometimes it makes sense to "pick your battles" especially if there are lots of different things you want to draw a clearer line on or a child is struggling massively in general, but OTOH it is always better to draw the line right at the point you find something not OK, rather than tolerate it through gritted teeth until you snap.

It's not unkind to address bad behaviour. In fact it's more confusing and unclear if sometimes you accept it, and sometimes you don't. It's OK to be empathetic if they are finding something hard, or to take time outside of the direct emotional crunch point to look at compromises or stepping stones, but just be aware of the fact that every time you don't address a behaviour you're basically telling them that it's OK. It's quite an adult skill for a person to be able to recognise that their own behaviour in a situation is unacceptable, and pull it back and stop by themselves. Children don't have this skill yet - they need us to be the guard rails and point out when they are stepping over the line.

This was such a helpful piece of the puzzle for me so I am glad it's helpful to you as well

Former gentle parent here! I am not "un-gentle" - I still agree with 80-90% of the principles behind what I used to think of as "gentle parenting" - but I found that some of the common stuff which gets repeated a lot was counterproductive, mainly because I have a tendency towards being too lenient/letting empathy get in the way rather than a natural tendency toward being too strict.

How do I stop shouting after being calm for so long?

IME, this happens when you're drawing the boundary much too late. Say "enough" and walk out of the room earlier, before you get to the point of raging. You remaining calm for the previous things is completely pointless if you're going to lose it later - and it's not actually drawing a boundary or communicating that you find the behaviour unacceptable, either, so it's not likely to stop the behaviour.

In your example first you ignored him saying (multiple) horrible things, and then you sat there while he hit your book for 15 minutes - this is way too long because during all of this extremely trying behaviour, you're building up frustration and annoyance under the surface which is liable to explode out. So you need to interrupt the cycle before all of this builds up. It is also much clearer in terms of which behaviour you accept and which you don't, when you react to behaviour you don't like immediately, rather than giving him a chance to stop on his own. Your reaction doesn't have to be harsh, scary or anything, it just has to be consistent which means you always react to that behaviour, you don't tolerate it for 15 minutes sometimes and for 2 minutes another time etc. It's not acceptable, so don't accept it at all!

So decide where you're going to draw the line - whether it's the horrible things, or that he needs to lie still/quiet if you're going to stay after reading or after you have stopped reading due to behaviour. Explain this to him at a time when he is not tired. Remind him of this changed expectation at the start of your bedtime routine.

Then follow it through calmly from the FIRST SIGN. So if he says something or starts to try to get your attention 1x, don't wait and give him a "chance". Say "No DS. I don't want to hear that. I'm going outside to calm down. If you're quiet, you can have one more chance."

Leave the room - do some deep breathing or whatever you need to do to keep yourself in a steady headspace. Re-enter the room and remind him of the expectation. If he does the behaviour again or something else in the same category, then say "Right that was your last chance. We can try this again tomorrow night. Goodnight DS, love you." Then leave the room - he will rage and scream and cry and all you do is be a broken record - "You have lost your chance for tonight. We can try again tomorrow. Night night."

You need a very calm, rehearsed, boring response to any pushback - so don't get involved in trying to wrestle the door closed or "making" him stay in. Let him come out (simply to avoid a wrestling match) and then either tell him or walk him back to bed calmly. This may take dozens of repeats, but the important thing is to keep your own response calm. You are not engaging in a power struggle or a strength competition with him, you are simply holding the line that you will not sit and listen to him saying horrible things, or you will not sit with him if he's not lying calmly going to sleep. And he has not lost his chance forever, he can try again tomorrow. But not letting him have endless chances means that you are making your stance clearer AND it means that you can respond to the behaviour before it drives you to rage.

If he will not be led back to bed, you can either ignore him if this is possible for you, threaten a consequence e.g. loss of screen time the next day and count down from 3, or if you are at an absolute loss, shut yourself in another room e.g. the bathroom or your own bedroom with your back sat against the door. He will eventually get bored or tired and give up. If you stay consistent with responding this way, he will learn that you're not going to change your mind and come back in, no matter what he throws at you - that is what a boundary is.

We haven’t usually given a consequence as I can’t think of one that related to what he’s doing?

It is actually a complete myth that consequences need to be related. It sounds logical but it doesn't actually work like that. I think what this is is really guilt-assauging because nobody likes using consequences and there are also a lot of really good, solid arguments against them, so a lot of internet parenting discourse gets confused because it's mixed up between an older belief that consequences are THE effective tool, and the newer idea that they can have downsides, so it's a sort of "How to use consequences, while not having them be consequences". This is a fallacy. Most of the time I find you don't necessarily need a consequence, but they can be useful in terms of making a very clear point of marking specific behaviours which are difficult to replace directly. But anyway, making them related vs not really doesn't make any difference. If you're using a related consequence as an opportunity to teach repair/restoration or for them to understand the IRL consequences of what they are doing, then just do that without emphasising it as a punishment because that's secondary. And if you're holding a boundary as described above, then it doesn't necessarily need a consequence further to that, but sometimes consequences can be useful as the backstop to a boundary.

What actually matters with consequences is that 1. They are being used in conjunction with teaching/encouraging/rewarding the replacement behaviour that you DO want, or the skill that is needed for this, and you're making an attempt to understand the behaviour and communicate with the child. A consequence will not do anything on its own. 2. That they are used consistently, not intermittently (the same behaviour from the child gets a response from you every time and is not sometimes let go or ignored) and as close to the behaviour as possible, and 3. That they are repeatable and temporary (and as a bonus go for something small/minor). This is because the size/severity of the consequence doesn't actually matter. A small consequence is just as effective as a big one, so why bring all the downsides of a big consequence when you can use something minor? It also helps parents who (like me and maybe you, OP!) lean on the side of letting empathy get in the way of discipline, AND the smaller you make it, the less likely you are to run out. Something you want to avoid is getting into a trap where you're taking so much (e.g.) screen time that it stretches on and on and on into the future and it ends up being meaningless as well as you then have nothing else to take away. If you have a generic/token, small minor consequence then you don't feel so bad giving it because you know 100% they can handle having 5 mins less screen time or whatever it is, even if they create about it in the short term. This helps teach YOU, the overly-empathetic parent, that it is OK to say no and reject certain behaviour, it does not mean you are rejecting the child's entire being, and it also helps teach the CHILD that they can handle making mistakes, accepting the consequence, and it is not some terrible rejection nor the end of the world.

100 per cent. Madness. Tell him to get into bed and stay there reading or whatever. Never heard anything like it.

@Blossoms217 you're obviously doing well. If tiredness is the issue he has to go to bed earlier and in fact if he starts agressing you can tell him that’s a signal he needs rest, quiet, downtime. Suggest he starts to self monitor: if I start wanting to swear and start having lashing - out feelings…then I’m in need of time alone. It means I’m tired. Nobody else should have to suffer because I’m tired.

You want him to clearly recognise what horrible behaviour and words are, don’t you. You don’t want to whitewash being horrible and send him out into the world Entitled and oblivious.
so tell him, you’re being horrible, I’m leaving. And leave. Model good boundaries and show him results happen.
praise wellness and leave when you are being abused. Swearing, hitting your book, saying I hate my family because you don’t buy me things, is abuse.

imagine if this were your daughters boyfriend behaving like that. As a parent of a male, you have a responsibility to stop abusive behaviour before it becomes habitual.

The singing thing could be an actual song(the amount of crap that’s out there these days is massive) or just him being silly/ pushing boundaries. How do you normally deal with things like this? Clear consequences and boundaries? Ignoring the behaviour (as long as not harmful) AND distraction? A mix of both? Something else?

As for time alone. In general, does he get to do stuff by himself? From getting ready, chilling to activities, playdates etc.? Could his bedroom be a place where he could have some of his things to play with if he wants/needs some downtime?

Overall he seems like a pretty good kid to be honest. There will be blips though, because he IS a kid. It’s important to keep an eye on the big picture rather than the moment, particularly on a bad day like yesterday.

The singing thing could be an actual song(the amount of crap that’s out there these days is massive) or just him being silly/ pushing boundaries. How do you normally deal with things like this? Clear consequences and boundaries? Ignoring the behaviour (as long as not harmful) AND distraction? A mix of both? Something else?

As for time alone. In general, does he get to do stuff by himself? From getting ready, chilling to activities, playdates etc.? Could his bedroom be a place where he could have some of his things to play with if he wants/needs some downtime?

Overall he seems like a pretty good kid to be honest. There will be blips though, because he IS a kid. It’s important to keep an eye on the big picture rather than the moment, particularly on a bad day like yesterday.

I meant why was he saying fuck. Thank for elaborating on the horrible words too. It sounds a bit like his own way of self regulating processing the day. Is he negative about himself too or just you as parents? Would he be interested in writing things down instead or drawing? What time does he go to bed and what is his bedtime routine? Obviously yesterday was a bad day so he was probably extra negative, but do the days normally end on a positive, calm note and he still says things like that?

I normally find that parents who really struggle with swearing grew up in households that were really , really strict on it and/or put a lot of value of value on what other people think, the image they project etc. and as such they take something like swearing very personally(as their own failing) , which furthers fuels their insecurity. There are exceptions of course, but maybe something you’d like to explore.

I meant why was he saying fuck. Thank for elaborating on the horrible words too. It sounds a bit like his own way of self regulating processing the day. Is he negative about himself too or just you as parents? Would he be interested in writing things down instead or drawing? What time does he go to bed and what is his bedtime routine? Obviously yesterday was a bad day so he was probably extra negative, but do the days normally end on a positive, calm note and he still says things like that?

I normally find that parents who really struggle with swearing grew up in households that were really , really strict on it and/or put a lot of value of value on what other people think, the image they project etc. and as such they take something like swearing very personally(as their own failing) , which furthers fuels their insecurity. There are exceptions of course, but maybe something you’d like to explore.

Wait..... You are lying in bed with an 8 year old until he goes to sleep? That is insane.. and it is detrimental to his self esteem. You have created a situation where st 8 years old he is dependant on you to go to bed and get to sleep. It is probable this age inappropriate parenting is not only confined to bedtime.
It is no wonder he is kicking back at being treated like a toddler, and the fact he has chosen to rebel by using 'adult' language is very telling.

You didn’t behave well but children do try the patience of a saint sometimes! Don’t dwell on it but there do need to be some changes I think.

Maybe I’m wrong but i can’t get that worked up about swearing, it is bad but just keep it as “we don’t use that word in this house” is enough and I think your consequence for repeating it was fine. He is probably hearing it a lot in school and possibly it slipped out unconsciously.
You must also make sure you and your DH never swear in his hearing or all discipline about him doing it goes out the window!

I think you really need to work on your bedtime routine too, he is 8 now not a baby. He shouldn’t really need you in bed with him to get to sleep. Use this school year to work on him being more independent, a story and a good night should be enough for an 8 year old.

I would have got up and left the room as soon as he started hitting your book because that’s just silly childish behaviour.

Why was he saying it? Annoyed at something? Singing a song? Just absolutely, completely random ? Did you ask any questions or talk to him about it? What were the awful things he was saying?

There’s a distinct lack of curiosity in your post and I don’t know if that’s a reflection of what actually happened or just the way you typed. You do realise that ignoring the behaviour doesn’t mean actually ignoring the child and then throwing about consequences and exploding all over them because they haven’t magically stopped, right?

We all have a certain amount of patience and he exhausted yours. That's perfectly ok, he's testing your boundaries. At his age he should be able to get himself to sleep and clearly you should have left once he started to hit your book. Stop beating yourself up over this.