Lindsay Clancy case: was it evil, or severe mental illness?

And it’s disgraceful the way that some people are essentially saying that mental illness is an excuse to murder three innocent children

Thats legally always been the case though? The killer of the two Nottingham students and one local man hasn’t stood trial due to mental illness.

the person who recently threw a kid in a crocodile pit isn’t going to be charged with anything.

It’s infuriating. So it appears from what has been said that this juror refuses to follow the law on the point of reasonable doubt. So it seems he has reasonable doubt but still wants to find her guilty. If he followed the law it would be a not guilty verdict.

And it’s disgraceful the way that some people are essentially saying that mental illness is an excuse to murder three innocent children.

Is anyone actually saying that? There is a defence (not excuse) of insanity. It isn’t available to just anyone and everyone suffering mental illness and the concept of not being responsible for your own actions has a long history.

I’m not up on this particular case to have a view or know how the law differs in Massachusetts, but if this trial ends in a not guilty verdict it is not a judgement on all women with post-partum MH problems or mental illness in general or a green light for anyone with a mental health condition to commit criminal acts.

The Victorians (the actual VICTORIANS!) were more compassionate to women who killed their children when suffering from what they called “post puerperal insanity” than we are. Psychosis means ”separation from reality”, it doesn’t mean “ranting and raving incoherently”. The fact that many women have frightening thoughts but don’t act on them doesn’t mean that any women who do are evil murderers in the sense people generally mean.

the 1 member refused to accept reasonable doubt was a legal reason to find her not guilty (even though the judge repeatedly said it was)

If you watch the trial - the investigation into the murder, and the 'confession' I think there is limited evidence that she did it or had time to do it, and her confession is mainly based on her ex's say so.

I honestly do wonder if she has been framed.

Pure evil.

And it’s disgraceful the way that some people are essentially saying that mental illness is an excuse to murder three innocent children.

Those children have been totally disrespected by it being suggested that this is anything but murder and by those who are shouting down anyone who dares to suggest that it wasn’t.

There was a poster on another thread who was told that she should have more empathy as she had had PND, the implication being that anyone with PND is capable of murder when we know full well that’s not true.

If anything anyone with PND would have less empathy as they have never considered murdering their children.

As for the “you’ve never seen anyone in psychosis” line, so what people are saying here then is that anyone can act totally normally, commit a murder, claim psychosis and we should believe them because there are no signs?

Let’s be honest here, nobody who murders three children is mentally normal. Nobody who murders anyone is mentally normal. But you can be mentally abnormal while still capable of making clear decisions and carrying out your actions and knowing full well what you’re doing.

Well the trial has collapsed as the jury could not agree, so it's not just observers who are not sure. One juror refused to go along with the other 11 apparently, but we don't know if the 11 found her G or NG.

Anyhow I believe she was very ill. Planning this was not impossible in the throes of psychosis.

There was a case in Ireland recently where the mother, also a nurse killed her three children. She was found not guilty but insane and is being held in secure psychiatric prison/hospital. It was a horribly similar case.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57190882

I think she is guilty of manslaughter at least. Three innocent children lost their lives because of her. And in a horrific way.

She recorded in her diary about not being able to sleep and her ex husband reported seeing her sat on the sofa rocking back and forth with a pillow over her head

You said this as if it was partial evidence that she was so unwell as to not be responsible for murdering her children. It isn’t. People can display a lot worse symptoms than this and still be responsible for their actions.

Indeed.

🙄

Like everyone else on this thread, no, I wasn’t there and I am basing my opinions on what I have read about the case and trial.

If you believe that she was mentally unwell she isn’t guilty of murder.

This is not factually correct. You can be mentally unwell and still guilty of murder. I have depression, currently well controlled. If I had murdered someone whilst unwell that would still be murder, and not automatically not just because I was mentally unwell. The test for not guilty of murder by reason of insanity is more complicated than you are suggesting.

Absolutely spot on - a lot of ignorance on this thread. The fact she had the insight to recognize something was wrong is heartbreaking for those children, her and her whole family. We know womens health is often poorly served and what they say about their health is often dismissed - this is another example of this, albeit one which where that kind of misogyny had catastrophic results.

I struggle with the fact that it was definitely planned.

I don’t think she was let down by doctors, she had access to a lot of medical professionals and medication. I was trying to imagine the same scenario with the NHS, having to fill in a econsult then having to wait up to 48h for a phone call that might or might not offer you a face-to-face consultation…

What I find odd is that people are so nasty about her husband remarrying. It happened 3 years ago is he not allowed to move on and find some peace? I know there are a lot of people that say he did it. I don’t believe that. I think she’s a very sick woman who masked how she was truly feeling. They have just declared a mistrial haven’t they so she’ll have to go through another trial. I think she’ll just end up in an institution for the rest of her life.

I think it can be both. I don't doubt she had mental illness but I'm not convinced that's the reason for her actions. Millions of people suffer mental illnesses but we're not all out there killing children.

So nobody who kills their children should ever be prosecuted for murder? Or people who kill one or two children can be justifiably prosecuted for murder, but not if they kill three? I’m not sure what point you’re making.

Thousands of women have these symptoms and worse. They are not diagnostic of being so psychotic you are not responsible if you kill your children. There’s a bit of a danger here of implying that all women with mental illness are a danger to their children.

She was mentally ill, she was literally begging for help! Kept being put on increased medication. Tried being admitted to a specialist post partum mental health unit and was turned away. Tried ringing a suicide hotline and was turned away because she didn’t have a specific plan, TWICE! Saw numerous health professionals who just kept prescribing medication. Medication it turns out she shouldn’t have been prescribed because she has now been diagnosed with Bipolar and the benzos and SSRIs increased the likelihood of her becoming manic. She told each mental health professional she was suicidal. She told both her mum and Patrick she was scared she’d harm the children. I’m failing to see what else the poor woman could have done!

She begged her parents to stay with her, which they did. She climbed into bed with her mum because she was afraid of being alone with her thoughts. Her husband tried to get her help, her mum tried to get her help, her MIL tried to get her help.

The prosecution for 1st degree murder feels like a witch hunt. Massachusetts doesn’t have the best reputation for treating women well, does it?

What is your assertion of her mental state before and after? Were you there? Did you assess her? Unless you were, you cannot possibly comment on whether she was psychotic or not. As far as I can see she was not assessed properly - certainly not before, and I havent seen anything to show she was assessed after either. You are clearly very ignorant about psychosis.