The Goose and Carrot Pub Thread

I have met people on DD1’s house, who I assume have mild learning disabilities, because they wouldn’t be there otherwise, but really I couldn’t tell in conversation. However, I have never had anything more than superficial conversations with them. Usually, we just arrive to pick DD1 up or drop her off; and then we leave, because it’s a long drive home.

As for the rights of people to live their lives freely in the community, I can’t help but think that’s code for - it’s cheaper to do nothing! The people DD2 has met have not been happy, living on their own. They have great sadness, usually due to unresolved trauma.

DD1 loves animals and I don’t know what she would do in a zoo left to her own devices, but then she is never going to be on her own.

You need to tie the incidents into the pip descriptors.

Thanks so much. I agree that we need to do something like a carers statement though I started it and it sounds horrific, not the day to day but the one off things like taking the boiler apart, flooding the bathroom but all of it together is so unusual I think they probably would believe it.

I agree that the family of William Chapman won't want his circumstances debated. It's very sad. In general, complete risk management is impossible and the deprivation of liberty required to completely rule out all risk for vulnerable people would outweigh the benefit. Reasonably foreseeable risk can be managed, but there will always be a risk that can't be planned for.

@Violasilkie I genuinely think that if you just describe how you communicate with DS, it will be fine. For example "DS can't engage with us directly, or communicate verbally. To be able to fix his electronic devices, I had to tell him that if he needed something to be fixed, he could leave it on the worktop. He gets very distressed if we try to communicate directly with him and can throw things and slam doors to express his distress. He can't tell us that he likes something so we have to observe behaviour patterns to work out if he approves. For example, we buy certain foods and if they are eaten, we know he likes them. We recently told him that we wanted to replace his shed. He didn't verbally communicate but he moved everything back into the shed that we had removed and sat in it, so we knew he didn't want us to dismantle it. Conversely, when we wanted to make changes to his bathroom, he left the door open and allowed us in the room, so we knew he approved."

I think the assessors can tell a genuine application from the language that is used, and there are specific assessors that are used to decide paper based claims where it's obvious that the person has complex needs. I'm not saying that they don't sometimes get it wrong, but I really don't think you're going to have issues because he isn't engaging with the outside world, when you're saying that he won't engage even with you. You can say that they discharged him because he became distressed if they came.

Yes I think its that one, I'll need to check but think we were told no keyworker but stay on DSR when left.

DS used to do things like say he could walk down a cliff fine or poisonous snakes wouldn't harm him and he's assessed as no psychosis and if that's right it must just be a feeling he is immune. You couldn't reason with him either, you just had to say there was a rule you couldn't walk down a cliff.

Yes, I know there are people with mild learning disabilities, who don’t need carers; but surely they would be high functioning enough to understand tigers are dangerous and wouldn’t jump into an enclosure with them, unless they had a death wish?

Looked up keyworker service and DSs keyworker isn't there anymore but the helpful lady her manager is. I am not sure if DS is still on the at risk of readmission register, think he might be unless they took him off it after we left.

Thanks @roaringdragon

Yes @LathkillDale I think it's been confirmed no learning difficulties, schizophrenia diagnosis, meds but no care as bright and appeared functioning. Mentions a job but self employed online trader which could be nothing much. It didn't look like suicide as he was dancing before and sounded happy so either psychosis or no sense of danger and a love of tigers. But just made me think as DS behaves like that with animals and climbs anything, fortunately obsessed with llamas, penguins, pandas not tigers. DS hated hospital but I think him being taken in handcuffs and forced drugged was largely why, otherwise it was just like a boring Travelodge. But he doesn't mind that. It concerns me the it's up to them part and the way they can be left in flats but it's balancing things so they have as much freedom as can safely manage. Though reading more he's different to DS as he was much more social and did some acting but I still thought gosh if DS had gone to zoo alone would have thought he was doing really well and looks how it ended. Not that there's any possibility of that though we do have a zoo walking distance.

With regard to the young man, who jumped into the tiger enclosure, I said to DH on Saturday, that I didn’t think he had learning disabilities, because there would have been one or more carers with him. There weren’t, so he must have been deemed to have capacity; and the other most likely group of people to do that, would be suffering from psychosis (and maybe schizophrenia)?

I watched the video of him online last night of him in the enclosure (but not his death) and he didn’t seem to have a clue about what he was dealing with? He sat down and was gesticulating, which imo would trigger prey behaviour - I doubt anyone would stand a chance with a Siberian tiger, but in Africa in the event of bumping into a lion, the advice is to stand still (as animals see taller animals as dominant), keep still (so as not to trigger prey behaviour) and scream (lions don’t like the noise)! Lions don’t like the smell of white people either, it’s something to do with our diet!

He could have been suicidal, but if someone were, they wouldn’t be calling it a naughty tiger - they’d be in touch with reality, and expect it to kill them. I could only assume he was in psychosis? The question is then - was he taking his medication, and if not, why wasn’t he on the injections; or if he was in an acute episode despite the drugs, did anyone know about it? Where was the supervision - although I know in reality, here people are sectioned, discharged into their council flat, where they live on their own and under no supervision by MH HCPs, until they have a psychotic episode again in public, when they get sectioned again! It depends on how involved the family are, and what they do in a crisis?

TBH, DD2 was better and happier in one MH unit, than she is in real life. She had company all day, three meals a day, proper sleep at night….None of which she gets in real life!

I don't know if GP knows about key worker. With my cancer treatment they had very few records and would ask me to repeat blood tests I had done that week as they couldn't see results. Though may well be a letter is a waste of time and they may not offer anyway. I may just send an update to them.

Thanks @roaringdragon I was just concerned as I read on here that PIP assessors only consider last 12 to 18 months for evidence as need current state. We obviously have very strong evidence from 2023 and 2024 but after that it's just the key worker service until end of last year / early this year who said they don't do reports before and aren't normally named. I have some emails with them but it's proving other than us saying he still can't talk or write. I have found it the past parents word doesn't count for much though TBF that wasn't pip. But getting a professional to repeat the same on headed paper seemed to work.

Thanks @Lougle I had a bad experience once where I had been mugged and head cut open, went to GP and then applied for criminal injuries compensation scheme and they contacted GP who said they had no evidence of it happening so got refused. Even though I had been in hospital and to see them for stitches out. I appealed and won but now am very wary of not informing GP. But also stressing myself out about the call. Though think now he's an adult and deemed capable it's all on him officially.

I watched a video on catatonia and the professional there said all that is left is the body and that refusing treatment is normal for catatonia which was interesting as I was made to feel it was my fault and I should be able to persuade him. AI said that maybe the brain pathway for movement has unblocked but the brain pathway for speech and writing is different and still frozen but don't know if there's any possibility of that. It also said he's refusing all interaction as he's on limited energy and in survival mode. But it's his eyes that freak me out. And he doesn't especially appear limited energy.

Every patient has to have a named GP @Violasilkie . I'd just contact the practice and ask who his named GP is, or write the name of the practice. They aren't always contacted, and even if they are, they'll have all the notes on their system.

Thanks @PurringTiger We could do that but we have a village system here where several villages which are about an hour apart in some cases do rotate the GP so it's very much a lucky or unlucky dip. And DS will not see GP since hospital so they have no contact for years so think I will need to get in contact so they are updated. But they may then start saying do you want us to do home visit etc which would just distress DS a lot and will not be very unlikely to achieve anything as he will hide so they won't see him. And him hiding could cause issues. Or it maybe he throws things at them. Or he smashes things here. I need to think about best way to proceed. Maybe if they would write a supporting letter. They may ask about health referral though it's difficult as he does not consent, will refuse everything, hide / smash things, get distressed.

The young man who died from the tiger is quite similar to DS and has the same spooked out eyes but good looking. What's concerning is his case he appears to have a schizophrenia diagnosis but no treatment sounding like he refused. It worries me as DS climbs things, loves animals, bows to them though I don't know what the solution is. Also the guy was like DS and as he's intelligent and good looking people assume he's fine and just being awkward / silly. But the only way of getting treatment is sectioning, taken in handcuffs, held down and that's no life either. And currently DS is assessed as no psychosis but he's not communicating so how would they know if he had delusions, or paranoia. His behaviour looks like it could be to me. But it could be it's still the freeze in catatonia. That's what the last assessment was saying. But how do we unfreeze him? Again it's sectioning or carry on but carrying on leaves us very vulnerable to judgement. DSs clear preference is carrying on and he's making very slow progress but would be safer to have a professional overseeing but it's difficult when he's deemed to be capable of consent and clearly refusing. There's the government scheme to put his age group in work or employment going compulsory that's worrying as he's clearly not up to either and strongly refusing both throwing things. It's whether we are stuck like this for life or he will come out of it, we are 3.5 years on from hospital now. It's not looking hopeful for a return to full functioning. We can work round that and he seems happy enough but it's getting proof longer term and whether it's best. Though the viable options are continue as we are or section and tbh I don't think they will section as he's made improvements and we are free. They also think lorazapam failed so it would be forced ECT which is scary and results are very variable with some getting worse. Argh hate Pip forms reminders.

@Lougle @Violasilkie oh my! I think I’ve got so muddled I’ve forgotten what introducing one’s self is. Of course! That makes more sense. Thank you both I just could not find the sense of it last night.

@Violasilkie DD doesn’t have a named GP I just put the practice name down.

@PurringTiger When I message about travel to an accomodation that does excursions, meals etc I would start with we are a family of 4 with kids ages so they know who is coming and that might affect what accomodation and activities are suitable. With meals if they have asked might explain dietary like one vegetarian. Or for a travel agent what activities do you like e.g. wildlife. So they can tailor to you. I also put where we are travelling from like UK or England and nationalities sometimes.

@Lougle That's lovely of your friend and your Dad, hope you enjoy it.

We got to the twilight spa again yesterday which was lovely. Booked it thinking we would have a short break before lots of work happens but with the pip firm arriving and needing to sort through the moved stuff I don't think there will be more days without work to do. The car has an issue with the rear break so DH got a hire car for the day and walked the 4.6 miles to it and will take it back now and walk back. Car goes to garage on Friday and hoping won't be too long to be repaired. DS took a bath whilst we were away and was in living room when we returned. We ended up chatting through plans for house and a bit on pip form. I was worried DS does not have an allocated GP but have the name of the one from last form and DH said he saw her earlier this year and she asked about DS. The nice doctor I spoke to before doesn't appear to be there anymore.

@PurringTiger it does all sound exhausting. Would DD accept an explanation that 'introducing yourself' is about explaining your role, whereas the signature is about declaring your name? 'Introducing yourself' is trying to build a connection with the client, not telling them who you are.

I am burning the candle at the ends and the middle. Knackered. I don’t know how to solve the difficulty of not writing assignments if the questions are written in the ‘wrong’ way. Eg introduce yourself in an e-mail. Why would anybody do this to a travel agent, your name is at the end. Well they wouldn’t but it’s to demonstrate that you can. Humour them for the reward of marks? Absolutely not.

@Lougle and there she is! So lovely DD1 poked her head above the parapet. DD and I have watched Encanto in every language that it’s been translated in and by some bizarre coincidence it’s one of the six film choices to watch and write about for one of this year’s OU assignments. The grandmother is indeed a mean one.

@roaringdragon glad you feel better and hope the safeguarding is not too arduous and doesn’t soak up time from other things.

@Zzzzzs good on you for pushing on with the building works.

@NoHaudinMaWheest my pet hate is anyone asking ‘what’s next’ how about talking about what’s been instead. Your DD is magnificent for completing her degree, let her breath people.