School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

I got a diagnosis because if I went storming around expecting the world to adapt to me, instead of me adapting to it where I am able, it would indeed cause severe difficulties in living my life.

I'll repeat here, my diagnosis is from the lead psychiatrist for the NHS on adult ADHD in my area.

I live it with ADHD. My husband lives it with Asperger's type ASD.

Are you saying we don't exist?

This narrative that it's impossible to moderate the effects of either conditions by lifestyle changes is, I believe, doing huge harm to those people who can't moderate the effects and need help from tax payers and co workers who are increasingly frustrated about what is being claimed to be unavoidable disability.

There is no mild autism or adhd when the threshold for diagnosis is high and both have to have a significant impact on life to reach threshold.

Incorrect and no idea how you got a diagnosis as to receive an ADHD diagnosis, your symptoms must cause a "clinically significant impairment" across multiple areas of life, such as at work, school, or in personal relationships. It is not enough to simply have the traits; they must actively interfere with your daily functioning.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/report-of-the-independent-adhd-taskforce-part-1/

I am talking lived experience, and I am talking published research.

ADHD and ASD are spectrum diseases and it is completely ridiculous and flies in the face of the known evidence to say that there isn't a milder end. In ASD it used to be known as Asperger's. There is recent research showing two opposing physical brain shapes in people with ASD. One is associated with lower impact.

The employment figure you quote is of people with a diagnosis. There are many people, especially of my generation, in careers which suit them who wouldn't seek and don't feel they need a diagnosis because they are in work which suits them.

To get an ADHD diagnosis you also need to have specific traits shown to have a significant impact on life. They often occur together and are hugely disabling, having a big impact on life that leads to adverse outcomes.

ADHD is a spectrum disease, it makes no sense to describe it as "hugely disabling". For many it simply isn't.

My own diagnosis was from the lead psychiatrist for adult ADHD in my area. He ended our consultation by saying my traits were so strong that contrary to his normal practice he was going to tell me immediately that I certainly had ADHD.

I am not only not "hugely disabled", I do not consider myself disabled at all. I landed on a a career that suited my traits down to the ground, I was able to put mechanisms in place that don't require masking or great effort to avoid the impact of some traits. I don't struggle with life any more than very many of the NT people I see around me.

I don't think the "everyone who is ND is a victim of their condition" narrative is helping the people who genuinely need help. In fact I think it's doing those people damage.

Oh and you’re talking nonsense. There is no milder end. The bar is high to get a diagnosis. It needs to have a significant impact on life .

Autism has a massive impact on life. 70- 85% of autistic people are under employed or unemployed. If you are having to work in roles hugely under your capability because of autism that’s literally being disabled by your disability.

You can’t train yourself out of autism and there are work initiatives and medication that can help with adhd both of which are being withheld from this child in school.

Look at BAP. It is totally possible to have significant autistic traits and not reach the threshold for an autism diagnosis if they don't fit the diagnostic model neatly. Do you genuinely believe that ADHD and ASD are binary? That people with a diagnosis are hugely impacted and disabled by it and everyone else has no traits at all? This isn't how it works.

Both ADHD and ASD are dimensional and occur on a spectrum across the population, rather than being categorical disorders (Sonuga-Barke & Thapar, 2021). Doyle (2020)

Incorrect - autism is officially recognized as a lifelong disability by medical authorities and legal frameworks, such as the NHS and the Equality Act.

It is dangerous to start treating humans as binary types of people. ND/NT. The science simply doesn't exist to support this kind of approach. We know that every single brain is 'wired' differently and almost all will have ND traits.

This doesn't mean a terrified child is forced without support and help into noisy corridors. This is true for any child, NT or ND. Does it matter if their fear is due to trauma, anxiety or an ND trait? We should look to treat everyone with compassion.

My wider point is that saying that ND excuses behaviour because it's a disability is a dangerous precedent to set. There is a school of thought that believes that psychopathy is a form of ND as it is associated with a different brain structure than a so called NT brain. Do we need to excuse all their behaviour based on this?

Complete rubbish. In the case of autsim 3 specific traits are focused on during diagnosis. The bar is high and they have to be shown to have a significant impact on life. Austism and how it presents and is diagnosed is most definitely not prevalent across the whole of society. 1% reach the threshold.Neither is ADHD which is 3-5% To get an ADHD diagnosis you also need to have specific traits shown to have a significant impact on life. They often occur together and are hugely disabling, having a big impact on life that leads to adverse outcomes.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/report-of-the-independent-adhd-taskforce-part-1/

ND is a disability

ND can and often does cause disability, it is not in itself a disability and disability benefits are not paid just for the diagnosis.

ND people at the milder end of the spectrum are by no means always disabled. Many people make adaptations in their lives which prevent their ND traits being a disability. Before I'm shot down in flames, many people can't. And I'm not talking about masking.

I'm talking about people with ASD of the type that used to be called Asperger's who can get themselves into a career and lifestyle which suits them. Typical careers of the type are chemistry and tech roles. I'm talking about people with ADHD who have managed to train themselves to be early instead of late.

I'm ADHD, my husband is ASD. Neither of us are disabled. We are disadvantaged, but no more so than many NT people are by their own disadvantages.

ND itself is not a disability.

What a pile of crap.

There is nothing "dangerous" about terrified child not being forced into an overcrowded, noisy corridor which is actually what this thread is about.

This isn't strictly true.

ND is just an umbrella term for groups of traits that combine together to form certain recognised ND conditions. These very same traits are prevalent across the general population and it is totally possible that a so called NT person can have stronger specific ND traits than someone with an ND diagnosis that is considered disabled.

My point is, ND traits will exist in virtually all of us. It's often the parts of us that we find difficult to manage and have to make a conscious decision to control in the society we live in. The idea that humans exist in some binary way where NT people are expected to manage themselves and their ND traits but someone that qualifies for an ND diagnosis doesn't is very dangerous. There is so much we still don't know about ND and the brain. We have no real idea if our current ND/NT arbitrary groupings and thresholds are accurate or even appropriate. What we do know is that we wouldn't function at all as a society if none of us actively managed our ND traits and simply looked to have all our behaviour excused when it was influenced by our ND traits.

ND conditions aren’t invisible but are sometimes hidden. Hidden disabilities are physical, mental, or neurological condition that are not immediately obvious to others but significantly impact a person's daily life. They are conditions that defy traditional stereotypes of what a disabled person looks like, which can lead to misunderstandings or challenges accessing necessary support.

You are on very dangerous ground accusing parents of hidden physical, mental or neurological conditions of taking the piss. It is hugely difficult getting the support these children are entitled and need, taking the piss all too often means managing the ignorance of others which is very much in evidence on this thread.

It does mean that behaviour which is the result of the disability must be excused, otherwise the school is punishing the child for the crime of being disabled.

Not one that means all behaviour is excused though.

Sadly the "invisible" nature of ND means SOME parents do use the diagnosis to take the piss.

ND is a disability!

If a child needs support, which your school clearly does, they do NOT have to have a diagnosis to get that support.

ND is a disability

Your legal rights include reasonable adjustments to enable you to access the same things as non disabled people

Ie lifts/ramps for wheelchair users
Brail for blind people
Interpreters for deaf people
Extra time for exams
Adjustments such as working from home, ear defenders
Uniform variation

For many ND the adaptions they need to access school are because of the environment. Work environments do not often mimic school enviroment - so they don't needs the same adjustments to work that they would need in school

However. The failure of schools.often means their mental health deteriorated through school system and the have missed education through poor support in education

Nobody has said you can.

Legal rights when the issue is actually due to the disability.

You don't get legal rights to behave and do what you like because you're ND.

The difference is because SEN is special educational needs. It is the term used in England and NI. The statistic of 20.8% with SEN (6% EHCP and 14.8% SEN Support) is the statistic for England. Whereas ASN is a Scottish term. Additional Support Needs is a much wider term, encompassing things the English definition of SEN does not. For example, the Scottish definition includes pupils who have EAL. Compared to England where EAL is not a special educational need.

There hasn’t been such a large increase in the rate of SEN in England as some like to portray. In 2010, so before EHCPs, it was 20.9% or 21.1% (depending on which statistics you look at - I think it is a rounding issue adding up SA, SA+ and SSEN). In 2005, it was 18%. Going back several decades to the Warnock report in 1978, “some 20% appeared to need some form of special educational help. This may even be an underestimate…”