School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

If you want more formal advice try Ipsea, sossen, Coram child law advice and/or the equality and human rights commission. All will give you free advice on this situation.

The reason latecomers are punished by missing the lesson is so they stop disturbing the other 25+ kids (some of whom will also have additional needs) who did manage to make it on time and ready to learn. It’s less of a punishment for the child who is late and more a solution to ensure the vast majority can learn. OP is naturally focussed on her own DD but the school has to think about all the other kids as well.

This is crux of your problem. My son's high school have a support policy for ALL pupils regardless of formal diagnosis or not. Their take on it is - formal diagnosis can take years (currently a 4-5 year waiting list for autism screening in this area) so children should not be put at a disadvantage while waiting. In addition, for various reasons not all families will pursue a forma diagnosis.

ALL children should be given support when required. I'd be looking to move schools.

The reason I chose my son's school is due to it's ethos - I also attended there. They are hot on pupil welfare and deal amazingly with bullying, pupils requiring support etc.

It would be unlawful to refuse support until diagnosis. The equality act is quite clear a diagnosis isn't necessary. Tell them they make adjustments or you'll consider a disability discrimination claim (but only if you'll actually carry through). In the meantime apply for an EHC needs assessment on the basis it's the only way she will get the support she needs. The LA will tell you she doesn't need one as the school can make adjustments....but if the school still refuse to do so push on and appeal the refusal to assess.

I’m in Ireland and the system is different, my children have adhd as so I.

Time blindness is a thing but you can work on practical solutions to help her.

Paed Occupational Therapist used to dealing with kids with adhd etc could be really helpful and look at things like where is her timetable, is it easy to access. Can she use colour coded folders to put all her stuff together by subject. Is she late due to taking down homework on the board at the end and needing longer to write it down (poorer working memory means she can remember shorter sections so needs to look more. It this is the issue could she take a photo of the homework or teacher send it on. Does she wear a watch to keep on top of time. OT’s can request accommodations and might be quicker

Chronic lateness and disorganisation is perfectly normal for those of us with ADHD but the reasonable accommodations we can expect is not simply being absolved of the responsibility and allowed to be late and disorganised. What we need, what your daughter needs, is support and structure to learn how to function as is needed.

5 minutes is a reasonable leeway and the punishment would rarely get triggered under most reasonable circumstances if she is doing her best. She needs to work out what the triggers are that cause her lateness of more than 5 minutes and take steps to avoid them.

Typical example - the lesson after break is chemistry, for which she needs to fetch her lab coat from her locker. She spends all of break chatting with her friends until the bell goes, at which point she starts going towards the chemistry lab, then remembers she needs the thing from her locker and goes to fetch it, can't find it immediately and spends a few minutes searching, finally finds it and is late. So instead she needs to get into the habit of getting ready for the lesson after break at the start of break time (and make sure she has what she needs for the lesson after that if there isn't another break in between) and only relaxes to chat with friends once that is done. ADHD people cannot simply rely on their brains to remember important things - if it is important it needs to be on a bullet list or visual cue card with reliable habits built up by always doing things the same way. If the school won't help then you need to work with her for 20 minutes before school each day for a month (after which less time is needed as the timetable is fixed and she'll know the drill) to plan and write down what she needs to remember before each lesson. Use a map of the school to identify critical points where the next lesson is a trek accross the length of the school that might take longer to travel than the time allowed and work out how to plan for it.

Of course she shouldn't be, but the point is she is doing it because she gets utterly overwhelmed. The likelihood is that, like many neurodiverse people, she has very sensitive hearing so that everything sounds extremely loud to her, and the crowds in the corridors won't help. Think about it for a moment - suppose you're somewhere where there is constant loud noise that is actually painful, and people pushing and shoving around you: would you be desperate just to get away from it?

OP has suggested some perfectly sensible work-arounds, but the school won't accommodate any of them. It is breaking the law, which is hardly a good example to any of its pupils.

I am very sorry that your husband has struggled but there really is no way of knowing if he would have struggled less or more if his parents had made more accommodations for him. It seems equally possible to me, with ADHD myself°°, that he could have ended up with life on benefits.

If PIP payments continue to be as generous as they are at present, added to UC, then it looks very much to me as if we are creating a generation of mildly° affected SEN children who will live life on benefits instead of being taught that if you want to support yourself as an independent adult you need to work out how to get to places on time.

°I am not talking about those children who are incapable of this learning.

°°which has caused me in the last week to buy a 4ft 6 mattress for a 4ft bed, to order 2 robot hoovers that won't do the job and can't be returned, and to discover that I had completely lost track of thousands of pounds in a forgotten bank account. It's pretty relentless but I've never been late for a meeting in my life. I'm always early, it's the only way I can be sure to be there on time. I don't say this to obtain sympathy but to explain that I am not talking from a position of no knowledge of the difficulties.

Have you tried removing her phone completely?

What is that going to achieve? The issue is coping with noise and crowds, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the phone.

I would put excellent money on this school being an academy. Profit first. Kids last.

These kind of comments are just so insensitive and ridiculous. Would you say that to a friend who confided the OP to you? Would that be your first comment IRL? The internet really does bring out dickhead behaviours.

It sounds like it would be worth your while applying for an EHC needs assessment. The criteria for that are simply that your child may have SEN, and may need support through an EHCP. For the second half of that, you basically need to show that she may need support over and above what is normally available via normal mainstream resources. Given that the current school is apparently unable to support your child, it looks like you could satisfy that one.

If they agree to assess, try to persuade them to get an occupational therapy report from someone trained in sensory integration, as it sounds very much as if your daughter's issues are caused by sensory issues, i.e. difficulty coping with noise and crowds. Even if it does not lead to an EHCP it will be very helpful to have an expert assessment of what is going on.

Not had time to read all of this but you may find Not Fine in School helpful (they are fab), great FB page, Also, do you have a local Sendias/Sendiass? They are good to talk to and can come to school meetings with you. Agree re needs led (poor school practice) and SEND code of practice. Good luck op.

Just a thought op.

How is your DD doing academically?

Because I'd be concerned that:

• she is going outside etc because she doesn't want to go to the lesson because it's hard
• the consequence of being removed from the lesson if late will never work if so, because in fact its getting her out of a lesson she doesn't want to be in.

I would go in to school and focus not on her ND traits or asking for adjustments, but on how she is doing academically, and the impact of missing lessons on that. Wholeheartedly agree with them that a consequence is needed for lateness and work with them to agree one that does not impact learning. You may find that a different consequence has a better impact.

Op you just came on this thread expecting people to agree with you that the school is appalling, you can’t do anything about it, woe is me, poor dd.

You need to do something constructive and stop moaning.

I doubt you’ve “tried everything “ as you claim.

Have you tried removing her phone completely?

Have you tried getting her involved in structured hobbies?Army cadets is enormously popular with ND kids and they respond brilliantly to the “baby steps” of learning drilling routine and discipline.

Have you ensured she spends lots and lots of time outside the home in low-stakes environments practising being in places that go from noisy to quiet to noisy? Or stay permanently

Adolescence is a tough time for ND kids and your job as parent is not to go “oh there, there poor baby.” Sometimes you have to actually DO something different and see if you can make an improvement. Otherwise how are you preparing her for adult life? You’re not parenting her properly.

OP isn 't asking that her child "be allowed to wander in whenever they please". She is asking for her to be asked to leave a minute early so she can make transitions when corridors are quieter. That's a perfectly reasonable adjustment, and it would be in the world of work. Or they could arrange for someone to walk with her to help her.

Preventing a child from accessing education by reason of their disability really is discrimination of the worst sort.

The lack of support on this thread is a bit depressing.

The OPs daughter is struggling with sensory overload in busy corridors between lessons, - not 'CBA' or 'needs to organise herself' as some PP have suggested. She can't cope. And it's the schools job to help her cope.

They have a legal duty to make reasonable adjustments to help her cope. They don't need a formal diagnosis for this, they should go by symptoms. Leaving class a couple of minutes early or use of headphones are minor reasonable adjustments that could help and they're refusing.

OP I'd use chat gpt to help you draft a letter to press the point that it's their legal obligation to make reasonable adjustments, suggest what you think might help again and ask what they are willing to do if that doesn't work.

I'd also look at changing schools.

Lastly look up 'right to choose' diagnosis pathway- you can use third party providers much much shorter waiting times

You are completely clueless.

Does she take a smartphone to school? That's the biggest reason kids at our school are late between classes. If she's overwhelmed and going on her phone to zone out, it isn't actually helping, but it's understandable she thinks it will. You are the adult and can correct that, help her make better choices.

Phone addiction and ADHD look very similar, they also combine in a really bad way. If she is taking a smart phone to school, that is the first thing you can change. If you aren't willing to do so then it's a bit much expecting the school to jump through your hoops.

Look I am very sorry about your husband.

But the best life chances for people with any neuro diversity (although I dislike that word as everyone is different and has their own issues to deal with) is to fit in with "normal" life as well as possible.

That's just obvious. Plenty of highly successful people have overcome what we all too readily categorise as special needs.

Of course I acknowledge that there are people with very severe handicaps but for people who are borderline (as I assume the OP's daughter is if she is in mainstream school) those children are not being helped longer term by being feather bedded.

Of course it's upsetting as a parent to see your child suffer but the point of these forums is to bring some objectivity and longer term thinking!

She has the alloted time to get to lessons plus a 5 minute grace period. What is she doing in this time? What is there to organise? She only has to walk from one classroom to the next.

I agree with school. Everybody is looking for an excuse as to why they should be treated differently.

I have ADHD. Not a recent diagnosis. Your classic, usually-seen-in-boys naughty, disruptive, disorganised, distracted style ADHD that caused me to be diagnosed as a teen (I’m now nearly 40). Severe, especially in childhood. I found timekeeping incredibly hard, and still get sensory overwhelm frequently.

My parents said to me, before and after diagnosis, if you find it harder than your friends, you have to work harder than your friends. They said your goals are yours to achieve if you’re willing to work hard and overcome the challenges. It’s that accountability that helped me take control of my life. I work in a professional job for a law firm now.

The diagnosis helps me understand how my brain works, then I make my own accommodations to make sure I can succeed.

It’s not real life to expect to be allowed to be late. I’d be fired! It wouldn’t be fair on my colleagues. It’s really fucking hard all the time, but everyone has their thing that makes life hard in one way or another.

It might sound harsh, but that’s my experience.

@KateSixer another person with zero understanding or empathy for SEN children. Behaviour is not a choice with SEN kids, if they don't do something it's because they can't.
Hopefully your attitude is a generational one that dies out.
My DH clearly has some neurodiversity but his parents chose to ignore it growing up and had the same attitude as you. Consequently he's had long term depression, a mental breakdown, a period of 6 wks in a psychiatric clinic and low self esteem. His family have never really accepted him for who he is or recognised his struggles. "Pull yourself together" doesn't really cut it. Thankfully he's estranged from most of them and better for it. He's also the most successful person in his family by miles and in part that is down to his ND. So fed up with the hostility towards SEN children, people - its disgusting.

Just a giant handhold. My 15yo was diagnosed last year, and it has been so tough trying to get accommodations in place. The system is not set up for ND kids and there’s a real range of understanding / empathy / ability to do something within schools.

It’s really hard bumping repeatedly on the attitude that there’s a simple solution - that the child can ‘just’ do this or that. They can’t. That’s the whole point.

I hope she and you get the support you need.

Quick note on diagnosis, now that my son is medicated for ADHD there are autism traits coming to the fore, so worth having both be part of the diagnostic process when you get there.