School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

Letting kids have meltdowns in class, wrecking other peoples work, throwing items, punching and kicking. There seems to be an attitude of ‘oh but they’re neurodiverse’, and ‘it’s fine cause we’re inclusive in this school’ rather than learn strategies to behave or you’re out. It’s not acceptable to act like this infront of other kids.

And there's that amazing insight again - so good you said it twice! You are hitting genius level now.

The OPs daughter is missing lessons and heading towards school refusal because school aren’t putting adjustments in place.
What do you suggest in a case like this?
If a few adjustments are put in place then she will hopefully be able to succeed educationally.
If they aren’t,,she may not.
Which situation is most likely going to end up with her being NEET?

What percentage of those SEN kids who are NEET were actively and fully supported at school? How many had the right adjustments on place for them to succeed?

The current thread about the issue of teens not being able to pass maths / English GCSE’s despite multiple results yet being barred from taking Functional skills therefore not having access to vocational quals / apprenticeships is very interesting and one I think you should read.

Equality and equity are not the same.

I do also think that many schools are just not seeking mutually beneficial compromise, only seeing the problems it causes and responding with blanket policies. Fidget toys for example. The school doesn't like them because they can distract others, so they discourage their use. My 9yo dd's response was entirely rational, self aware and responsible: "I would fiddle with it quietly under the desk so as not to distract others - and I'd agree that if I started distracting others with it then I'd have to give it up". A perfectly reasonable, thoughtful response. If an autistic 9yo girl can think in this way, then why can't adults? I'm becoming much more vocal and unapologetic about reasonable adjustments where there is virtually no perceivable inconvenience to others.

School do not NEED to wait for a diagnosis, they are CHOOSING to wait for a diagnosis. Our local HS understands the wait for CAMHS, and treats young people “as if”, based on conversations with parents and young people. They offer flexible timetables, on site alternative provision, a seperate entrance for young people who may find the main entrance difficult etc etc

All schools can do this, it’s just some can’t be arsed.

I think this is quite a thoughtful post. To respond I'd say the first step (and this applies to the other "two tier" areas as well) is to recognise that where we are is not where we want to be.

At the moment all these types of discussion have become polarised with those saying the pendulum has swung too far being characterised as "far right" rather than just having a valid viewpoint.

There is so much entrenchment of view - especially in the public sector we all pay for - that simply achieving a general recognition that things are not working well would be a major leap forward.

So many people (especially in govt and the public sector) like to pretend we don't have serious problems across our public services. Of course we do.

If and when we get to this position then change can happen from the political centre not from the extremes. So the first step is recognising that what we are doing is not working.

I don't have time to write an essay but once this crucial position has been reached there is a valid debate to be had about how we change our approach to public services.

My 2p would be that every question in a school environment should be answered against a test of how it improves educational outcomes for the greatest number of kids. So in a mainstream school individual adjustments would be limited.

But I could be more radical. Why not have he govt give every child a voucher with which the parents could choose a privately run school? Different schools would spring up catering for different types of child.

Why does teaching provision need to be undertaken by the public sector at all? Judge by outcome.

Before you go 'into battle' with the school, one important thing you should do is find out from your daughter exactly what she thinks will help her get to school/class on time. Frequently adjustments are put in place between parents and teachers that don't actually address the problem because the child has their own reasons for struggling with something that they haven't communicated to anyone.

Such as what? Can you give an example of something that is completely unreasonable?

So, at my kids school (we are Scotland), you don't need a formal diagnosis. So we had measures in place before we even submitted for one - as they wanted to see if they helped first. If they measures that SEN kids need works then it is basically like a confirmation investigation is needed - if that makes sense? Eldest has ADD (with Autistic traits). Youngest we are awaiting a rediagnosis on as the SEN teacher (who is also parent to an autisic boy!) is like 100% he is autistic he is a carbon copy of my son - doc said naur...Sen teacher is like WTF!

They get out early for classes and lunch - even for the bus if that is an issue. They get to sit in the quieter areas of class. and Just in general all the teachers are - within reason - mindful of their teaching approach. I so think the quiet SEN kids are so much easier for them than the Hyper ones though. And that also played a part in my daughters resistance to going to school. She has about 3 disruptive kids in her classes in s1-2 that basically made her hate school so much that there were tears, stomach aches, headaches, purposefully hurting themselves to get collected (attendance was like 87%). We/school didn't start looking at her as SEN until mid S2 after she decked someone when she was confronted and couldn't flee (and other things)

Currently we are still often 3-5 mins late. BUT our school does reg, so they are never late for actual classes.

My Son also hides in a quiet zone if he is on time/early, and will be the last to go in. He has normal headphones (though noise cancelling ones). Eldest has in ear ones she wears in class with the keep aware on.

NONE of the measures needed have any impact on anyone else.

The school is locked/secure exit, so if they get out 5 mins early for a class, they cant leave the building as a whole.

Only place to skip class is library - and any non senior level kids will get asked why they are there in class time if they shouldn't be.

There are other smaller things that they implemented, and it actually HELPED my eldest with her executive functioning. Yes, morning still SUCK, but she has gone from a chaotic hamster to understanding her schedule in about 2-3 years.

I think the rule of missing class when your late it actually ridiculous, and could it possibly be against her rights to schooling?
As a punishment it teaches her nothing. It is NOT how the majority of the real world functions (yes, buses,trains,planes etc).
I would guess that the missing of so much work will be adding to stress for her, which will make her not want to go to school more, so there will be less and less desire to even bother trying to get there....and that will just keep repeating that cycle.

How would the OPs DD wearing ear plugs be a huge hindrance to anyone else ?

While you are waiting for a diagnosis OP would your GP write a letter of support saying she would benefit from leaving the class a little bit early? I know you suggested a minute but I would think 2-3 mins.

I did a lot of supply and it's not uncommon for children who use wheelchairs to leave a little early.

Loop earplugs really are raking it in with their shitty little ear plugs that do nothing. Talk about the emperor’s new clothes. Can’t get through a Mumsnet thread on autism or adhd (or the new mega variety audhd) without someone talking about bloody Loop earplugs

You just have your remember that anyone can post on here. People with zero knowledge of ND or the law, people with no empathy, experience or understanding of ND, goady people and trolls can all post.

In between the people who are clueless or goady, there are usually some kind people and helpful information. Ignore the rest as annoying as it is.

What about when the adjustments being requested are completely unreasonable though? What about when the help they want would be a hindrance to everyone else?

There will always be underlying differences between cohorts as there are fundamental shifts between generations that can't be controlled for when making comparisons. For example, technology, science and funding can all make a difference.

What we do know though is that spending on SEN has roughly doubled in the last decade. Educational outcomes have not improved and some statistics are absolutely woeful, for example, only 5% of people with learning disabilities go on to enter employment. We are currently stuck with an expensive and ineffective system that is financially unsustainable and not enhancing the future workforce which is ultimately has to be the primary function of education. Instead we have ended up with a worrying amount of NEETs with those with SEN more than twice as likely to fall into this group.

At some point we need to question whether throwing endless money and resources at the problem is effective. We need to look at what SEN actually is and really question if the net is being thrown to wide and whether the adjustments we are making are helping or hindering our young people in the long term.

....and how resentful and unwilling some parts of society are to make even the tiniest, most reasonable adjustment to cater for it.

Like trying Loop buds that the school have said they will confiscate?
Or leaving somewhere a little bit earlier to avoid crowds? I’ve never seen an adult use that strategy (sarcasm).
You can liken so many of these posts to someone telling a person with mobility issues that they just need to workout how they can get up and down the stairs because “that’s what they’ll need to do in the real world”. Yes the world is full of steps. But thankfully now we also have lifts and ramps and assistance on trains etc. Ever heard of the social model of disability?

Some of the posts on here just reflect how neurodiversity is misunderstood.

Sure, your daughter is so famous that Universities are randomly contacting her out of the blue begging her to enrol. 😂

If Sendco is useless, try the head of year, or escalate upwards. Demand a meeting with someone. The suggestion of leaving a couple of minutes early may be enough to solve the problem, if you can just get to someone who will authorise that. Point out the risk of school refusal otherwise.

Agreed, my SD is AuDHD and she has a full life, including pop concerts, sporting fixtures and theme parks and doesn't get sent to bed at 8pm. She has support to help her with overwhelm and movement breaks at school, and is just finishing her GCSEs which she's predicted to do very well in.

Telling her that because she has AuDHD she just has to accept that she can't live life like any other teenager has never occurred to us.

She doesn’t hide in bed. She just needs time away from people in order to be a people person the rest of the time. She’s thriving at school thanks. Gets 90-100% in every exam she sits, is happy, fulfilled with a wide circle of friends and has universities contacting her asking her to apply for their courses. It’s all about giving young people strategies to help them thrive, rather than telling them education isn’t for them, but hey here’s some benefit money so go any live off that for the rest of your life…

Or she could choose to work in one of the very many workplaces that don’t have hundreds of people all trying to get through the same corridors at the same time, adjusting her start and end time if needed.

Interesting. Are there other underlying differences between this cohort and previous ones that could mask the impact of the support (ie Covid disruptions, higher rates of SEN, broader societal changes linked to austerity)?

When she works she’s going to have to learn to cope. She needs to develop strategies for coping with noisy corridors.