School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

You don’t speak for all either. For some it’s an extremely useful mantra. I spent many years with clinical depression. I was lucky at the time that I didn’t have any other option than to get out of bed every day, slap a fake smile on my face and head to work. It got me chatting to others, made me think of something other than the best way to end my life. There were only 13 days in 7 years of depression when I couldn’t face work.

Giving depressed people benefits to sit at home all day seems actively cruel to me.

She actually appearing to cope
Lots of ND girls in particular are experts at looking like the are coping (this is called masking ).
They are great at acting the part but this comes at a hidden cost that you can't see but the ND individual is experiencing

This can go on for a very long time until they just can not keep the mask in place anymore. At best this is a burnout at worst they will be suicidal

Even the best case scenario will result in burnout and mental health issues.
The longer someone masks for without support and downtime the bigger the crash when they eventually crumble and the longer the recovery.

Um you do realise that ND varies massively. Some have autism, some have adhd and some have both.All 3 conditions vary massively. Some also battle dyspraxia, Ehrlors Danlos syndrome, CPTSD, EDs, depressive severe anxiety etc alongside as ND is linked with all.

Your child does not speak for all and what you’re describing is called masking which is hugely damaging. It nearly killed my dd and much of her recovery lead by highly trained specialists was based on learning not to mask and to learn to vocalise her needs whilst finding ways not to overload.

Exactly this. A reasonable adjustment can be useful and help all pupils. For example using particular fonts on a PowerPoint. But if the RA is about allowing certain pupils to have a calmer transition between lessons by moving at a separate time the benefit would be lost if everyone had it!

I'm not sure that everyone really believes in neurodivergent sensory processing differences. This poster is an example of someone who really just doesnt get it!

If people are interested to know more its easy to find resources. For sensory overload I like The "Broken Bouncer" Analogy:

"A typical brain has an invisible 'bouncer' at the door that filters out background noise, bright lights, and side conversations so you can focus. In a neurodivergent brain, that bouncer is missing. Every single piece of data, the hum of the fridge, a flickering light, a passing car, and your voice rushes into the room all at once at maximum volume."

It's not the same feeling for someone with ND as it is for a neurotypical person in a crowded corridor.

40% of Scottish pupils have additional needs. Not disabilities, but needs that mean they cannot participate fully in mainstream school.

I really adhere to the ‘fake it til you make it’ mantra, in so many aspects of life. My ND has learned to cope by pretending she’s coping. Then though she has tough days most of the day she’s actually coping. Hiding away behind excuses helps no one.

There are not 40% of people with disabilities.

But if there were...
If 40% of the workforce were deaf wouldn't the remaining 60% be more likely to learn sign language and be more likely to be patient and understanding in their communication? Why doesnt this apply to ND? Why is ND just seen as an inconvenience and not acknowledged as a disability? What is it that makes it so controversial?

ND reasonable adjustments are about making things equitable for everyone so of course the requirements of the school don't change. But how are they changing in the Ops daughters scenario? To get a grade she will still need to perform in her GCSEs surely thats the ultimate aim of school. Can you explain how ear defenders or avoiding loud corridors for example mean she can't be a good school student.

The OP is asking for support to help her daughter its absurdly disabling to imply that we cant help because we just dont have the resources.

Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of reasonable adjustments actually improve the classroom experience for ALL PUPILS

Well generally the teachers are on duty and clearing the corridors from the ‘on time’ time. Children who are directly outside their classroom will be allowed in at the on time time. So…. Those that then need the 5 minutes, with a disclosed disability or not can then use it. I do understand that ;)

But that's the point if everyone is taking the 5 minute grace to get to class it doesn't become me calm in the corridors until the others have got the class.

To link to your ramp point. If 20 pupils are standing and chatting on the ramp the pupil who needs the ramp can't use it until the pupils move. While the pupils are stood on the ramp the disabled pupils can not move.
When everyone is in the corridor chatty, pushing, moving the ND pupils with anxiety about corridor cramping can not travel to her next class.

Why can you not understand that?

That’s incorrect. It’s good practice to extend adjustments where possible, to include those who may not have disclosed needs. For example, a ramp is an adjustment, but can be used by all.

If it's extended to everyone it's not a RA is it. The RA would be for ops dd to have additional time on top of the 5 mins everyone else gets.

“Helplessness”- she’s in school and battling a disability. That is anything but helpless.

Diagnosed mental health problems maybe but undiagnosed who knows.

And there's a huge number of people in their 30s , 40s and beyond who are getting diagnosed as adults many of us can track back to our secondary school lives and start to understand things so much better now we know!

No but the helplessness is getting to a breaking point. The 5 minutes grace is a reasonable adjustment, it just so happens that this is extended to everyone.

Is this parent speaking to the child about ‘hiding where it is calm’ close to the next classroom? Mapping a route? Looking for pinch points? Or just telling the child that school is discriminating and getting angry?
This isn’t something schools have capacity to do for so many children. The easiest adjustments need to be made first before it is escalated, that way the ‘leaving a minute early’ is only used by those they really need it, otherwise half the school is in the corridors at that time and it defeats the point of the adjustment.

Life is about taking responsibility for putting strategies in place. The same goes for all disabilities, obviously things like ramps for a wheelchair are very clear. With neurodiversity it is nuanced.

Im sorry if the parent has done all these things and just didn’t mention them.
but it seemed from the post she has jumped straight to ‘school needs sort this out’ where there is responsibility elsewhere. Schools simply do not have capacity and we can either stamp our feet about it or live in the real world where we have to be part of the solution.

Apparently not!🙄

Did you read this article?

Only 11-12% of children are documented as disabled so maybe don’t quote nonsense.

Does it? Or maybe it's worse because children are forced into school now or parents are fined. Maybe it's worse now because there's less staff and funding to support current children. Maybe it's worse now because we recognise MH problems more than we did back then (and even now middle aged/older people don't recognise they may be anxious/depressed/be ND because they've never learnt about it). Maybe it's worse now because schools are so academically focused whereas when I was at school in primary we had two playtimes and lunch break every day, we did more art, music, PE and less sitting in rows at desks and in high school we had GNVQ options as well as GCSEs.

This, especially as they then expect adjustments in work too. Reasonable adjustments should be to help.the person meet the requirents, not change the requirements so they can meet them.

I’d love to know where any reliable data on this is as children and young people with autism/adhd or mental health or both went completely undocumented, undiagnosed and unsupported in previous decades.

That’s article is not about mental health in young people with autism and adhd.

Nuffield trust::

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/the-rising-rates-of-common-mental-health-conditions-across-all-ages

There are other reputable sources & statistics on this, its quite widely known.

They didn’t have ear defenders when you were at school. Perhaps they didn’t have cars and also used a horse and cart, do who needs cars, eh?

Understanding of autism and ADHD has massively improved. Children who would not have been in school are retained. The school system has changed. The class sizes are enormous compared to when ‘we’ were at school. Those classes are taught according to pedagogy and rigid curricula with little space for creative teachers to adapt to meet the needs of individuals in their classes. Teachers are chronically assessed for performance, which further means they have less scope to be adaptive. They are also assessed on the measures of children’s progress. I could go on… but school today has bugger all resemblance to when we were at school.

Oh, and when you say that its ‘all made u - per the original post - you are talking rubbish from the perspective of a person who is a) not qualified to understand SEN and b) clearly not trying your effing damnedest to support an SEN child, usually not in isolation from siblings, whilst juggling as two working parents (also not a big thing when ‘we’ were at school). In fact, when you make such statements you are being ableist and offensive. Hence your prior comment being deleted. If you don’t know what you are talking about, please step away from a thread where a mum is asking for support and advice that you clearly are not qualified to give.

Hope that helps.

The quotation marks dont indicate anything other than highlighting the reasons given.
If noise is an issue,i would certainly challenge why they are not permitted for moving between classrooms.
I would also seek diagnosis re any ND and sensitivity issues that may help get her support.
My daughter had a similar issue in her case it was due to her fearing being bumped and barged in the corridors (she has no neurodiversity or adhd ) which made her slow down and hang back ,hence being late. Her school was supportive and let her leave first accompanied by a friend ,this resolved the issue for her.

What strategies have you tried with her so far?