Please or to access all these features

SEN

Here you'll find advice from parents and teachers on special needs education.

This is breaking me. 6yo about to be excluded.

118 replies

NDandMe · 10/05/2023 18:28

His behaviour is erratic, violent, and uncontrollable at school. I know and accept this is an untenable situation and the school has a duty of care for the other children as well as him.

We are doing all we can, but he is violent at home, too. He kicks and punches me, he kicks off at random things, and any behaviour management techniques only last a short time.

He's been referred for both ADHD and ASD. His behaviour is so extreme he's been bumped to the top of the waiting list for the Ed Psych - we have an appointment after the half term break. The school can't give him the resource he needs to function- sometimes 2 or even 3 adults in the room.

I am doing all the "right" things according to the woman on the CAMHS hotline. But he's still in crisis, about to be excluded, and I don't know what more I can do. What else is there? What am I missing? I've asked for a reduced timetable but I don't think he's going to last until half term at this rate.

He refuses to accept he's been violent at school, and says his teachers are lying. How can I address an issue he won't even admit to? What more can I do? I am overwhelmed and scared. I wouldn't blame anyone for saying I'm a bad mother and he should be excluded. I'd be furious if a child like this hurt my own DC. But here I am, feeling powerless and worried he will be out of school with no education before he can even read properly.

OP posts:
NDandMe · 10/05/2023 22:40

I've been reading through this thread again tonight, taking notes. I'll be emailing the school tomorrow, asking urgent questions and asking for a meeting ASAP.

I'll start the EHCP myself as well.

Thank you again, all. This thread has been a lifeline tonight.

OP posts:
totallyteutonic · 10/05/2023 22:33

NDandMe · 10/05/2023 20:06

Yes, he's year 1. His behaviour started going downhill in October, but it's escalated quite significantly over the past month.

Do you think his behaviour deteriorated as he started having less choice over his learning? I know Y1 can be v different to reception in many schools. If so you could look into self directed learning, I recommend reading Naomi Fishers book Changing Our Minds as a starter. But this basically recommends a child led approach to learning that is incompatible with mainstream school so poss not a lot of help if you want /need to keep him in local school system.

immergeradeaus · 10/05/2023 22:31

You sound like a super parent having a shit time. I agree with other posters that a formal exclusion is likely to help you get the right support for your ds rather than be a bad thing. And it’s really positive if your ds can get the support soon rather than hanging on in a school which can’t meet his needs for another year or three.

Brew and a virtual handhold to get you through the overwhelm: you can ride out this storm.

KeepOnKeepOff · 10/05/2023 22:24

@NDandMe obviously can’t diagnose but as PP said I would definitely read up on PDA. Ticking a hell of a lot of boxes.

totallyteutonic · 10/05/2023 22:21

OP you sound like an absolutely amazing mum, unfortunately schools don’t have enough resources to deal with kids outside the norm. I think he might need a break from from school as it sounds very stressful for him. Though I know this is extremely difficult with needing to work. Some orgs I follow that might be helpful are Not Fine In School https://notfineinschool.co.uk/ and Square Peg https://www.teamsquarepeg.org/what-we-do

I’m not sure of your financial situation or location but lots of children who can’t cope in mainstream thrive in private alternative settings, you can find those here https://www.progressiveeducation.org/

Not Fine in School

Not Fine in School is a parent-led organisation empowering families & raising awareness of school attendance barriers (school refusal/ anxiety/ SEND/ bullying)

https://notfineinschool.co.uk/

alexaisrising · 10/05/2023 21:43

MargaretThursday · 10/05/2023 19:03

There was a boy in one of my dc's classes who sounds similar. I always found him very sweet when I ever came into contact with him, but I'm told that when he flipped it was extreme. Towards the end their class was being evacuated up to three times a day to keep them and him safe.
I honestly don't think he had any memory of when he flipped-he was beyond that, so naturally he didn't see the problem. So he's not necessarily refusing to see a problem; he may genuinely not realise what he's done.
I can also 100% say it wasn't his parents, so I'm sure it's not anything you've done either.

Using the exclusion, the headteacher worked with the LA to get him into an appropriate school-where he thrived. I know the head regularly visited him at the special school to help him settle and even once he'd settled she kept in contact with the parents to see how he was doing for years-far beyond when he'd have been at the school.

Please don't blame yourself, and don't blame him either. It sounds like he truly is overwhelmed and is not in control of himself.

This post made me tear up a bit.

My boy went through something very similar in early KS2. It nearly broke me and the way we were treated by the school and fellow parents will haunt me for the rest of my life. This compassion and understanding is so lovely to read.

OP - my son has thrived with an ASD diagnosis and transfer to a specialist school. He's been there years and is a totally fabulous, non violent teenager.

Startyabastard · 10/05/2023 21:40

Not much advice other than neurodiverse children struggle with reward charts and punishments that aren't 'natural consequences'.
They often see them as bizarre because they are seemingly unrelated.
You are absolutely doing the best you can and you are taking responsibility, so you're doing well on that.

Myusername4321 · 10/05/2023 21:35

I work as a SEN lead albeit at a college so a lot older children but I came to see if I could add anything but reading through comments you've had some good advice.

How are you OP? Have you got a support network around you? You really are coping with a lot I hope you are taking care of yourself aswell.

Jellycatspyjamas · 10/05/2023 21:23

also whatever your child’s interest is once they are calm you need to talk to them and say you will reduce their access to said thing by 5 minutes for their poor behavioural choice.

I’d be very careful about this unless and until you’re sure he’s actively choosing his behaviour. From your description it sounds like he loses control and recognition of his response when he flares up which isn’t uncommon. If that’s the case he’s running on instinct, effectively fight or flight, which he has no choice about in the moment. You could be punishing him for something beyond his conscious control which is unfair.

I also know for my DD her interests actually help her self regulate so reducing time spent on those is counterproductive in that she’s more likely to have a meltdown without access to things that hold her interest and help her regulate.

CabernetSauvignon · 10/05/2023 21:13

Have a look at the official government guidance on school exclusion - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1101498/Suspension_and_Permanent_Exclusion_from_maintained_schools__academies_and_pupil_referral_units_in_England__including_pupil_movement.pdf. It says repeatedly that, before considering exclusion, schools should be considering whether the child has SEN and should be taking steps to ensure they are properly identified and met. It really is pretty appalling that you have got this close to exclusion without the school applying for an EHCP. I would suggest you point that out to the school and ask exactly what they are doing to comply with those requirements. It could also be worth pointing out to them that leaving your son to sink or swim without giving him support and then trying to exclude him is disability discrimination.

There is information on the IPSEA and SOS SEN websites about applying for an EHCP, I suggest you start this process immediately without waiting for the SENCO to get her brain into gear.

If he is excluded, I would strongly suggest getting in touch with people who can advise you on challenging it, for instance:
https://schoolexclusionproject.com/
https://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/areas-of-law/education-law/school-inclusion-project-sip/sao
http://cenlive.org/exclusions
https://www.justforkidslaw.org/what-we-do/empowering-young-people/legal-support/education-and-community-care

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1101498/Suspension_and_Permanent_Exclusion_from_maintained_schools__academies_and_pupil_referral_units_in_England__including_pupil_movement.pdf

UrsulaBelle · 10/05/2023 21:12

Yes, my local SENDIASS was far from impartial. 🤷🏼‍♀️ But my DS’s SALT and his advisory teacher for autism were both amazing allies. MN is a good source of advice as well. Don’t be upset by harsh seeming replies, we’re just cross at the system and sick of the constant struggles. And some of us are probably on the autistic spectrum ourselves and have a tendency to be blunt.

PDA is a good shout. You say he really hates being told what to do? Classic PDA symptom. I used to support a child with PDA in a MS school. One trick was to ‘talk all around the houses’ about things you want them to do so they feel it’s their own choice and not that they’re being pressured. It’s almost the complete opposite to advice for those with more usual ASD, which is to simplify instructions down to very plain language. It’s about having a few strategies to try. Your DC will respond to some and not to others. You become the expert on what works for him. Lots of luck.

ThomasWasTortured · 10/05/2023 21:01

I understand people believe they quote the local authority but they do not, they are impartial and all Ipsea trained.

Sadly in many areas SENDIASS do repeat the LA’s unlawful policies.

SeekingBalance · 10/05/2023 20:56

Lots of helpful advice here, SENDIASS service would be your best bet. I understand people believe they quote the local authority but they do not, they are impartial and all Ipsea trained.
Their website is incredibly informative.
Re the exclusion, ensure its all documented as this is evidence for your ehcp and how the provision currently aren't meeting need. A brief meeting should take place before your child returns to school and any new interventions should be discussed.
Ensure your child is being heard and their views are documented on his one plan, this is paramount.
Knowledge will be your power, you sound like a wonderful mum.

NDandMe · 10/05/2023 20:55

Between a rock and hard place sort of way I mean.

OP posts:
NDandMe · 10/05/2023 20:54

Yes, I do feel like he is on constant sensory overload, and can't self regulate. I have to cradle him like a baby, take deep, slow breaths to help him follow suit. I sit in a darkened room to help him get calm.

I know he's in a bad way. I know it. But I have to work too. I feel absolutely trapped.

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 10/05/2023 20:52

I guarantee it’s the environment and not your child.

At home when your child starts to lash out - please remove yourself from his space, do not look at him, talk to him just move away slowly. If he comes after you firmly and calmly remove him from your person.

You can always see when the violence is coming? So then you will know that you have to back off quicker than you have been doing

does the child have a small tent or sensory space in your house? They need one

also whatever your child’s interest is once they are calm you need to talk to them and say you will reduce their access to said thing by 5 minutes for their poor behavioural choice.

This will be very hard at first and things will get worse before they get better.

be consistent and firm

humus · 10/05/2023 20:48

https://www.newboldhope.com/
some good resources and insights on this website into anxiety cause violent behaviour and support and help.

Home

https://www.newboldhope.com/

MathsNervous · 10/05/2023 20:46

And often you will be told that your child just isn't a priority. It's disgusting the way some local authorities behave around arrange support for primary pupils.

LittleOwl153 · 10/05/2023 20:44

I don't think @Oblomov23 is implying you are not doing everything you know about. The problem alot of us with SEN kids face is that the SENCO only has limited resources which have to cover all the kids. And they have to ration. A child like yours will be passed around as the school doesn't have the resources to come close to what he needs and everything they direct at him in the meantime is something that a child they expect to see through to yr6 is missing out on. I KNOW THAT SOUNDS AWFUL... IT IS!! But sadly its likely to be true. We are the only people our special kids can rely on - hence directing you to join one of the communities of parents who know the system.

I would attempt to avoid a permanent exclusion - question it, appeal it, take it to tribunal whatever it takes until your child has seen that EP otherwise they will loose that appointment and be at the mercy of another head being prepared to put him to the top of their EP list ahead of other kids. (I'd accept a short term exclusion as a few less days in school to get through though) Once he's seen the EP his existing school will be expected to work with you to do whatever the EP proposes before they are allowed to attempt to exclude him again - assuming the EP doesn't suggest an immediate move.

Take care OP. SEND kids are hard on themselves and those who care for them.

MathsNervous · 10/05/2023 20:42

Is it possible to contact Barnados or similar charity for support?

saraclara · 10/05/2023 20:42

I taught a child very like your son, in my special school class. He didn't really fit my school's clientele, as he didn't have the severe learning needs that the rest of our children had. But there was nowhere else within the LA that could manage him.

He would become very violent very quickly, but fortunately I had the staffing to deal with it, and he could be removed from the classroom very quickly, to a safe environment (fortunately he never hurt other children, only me and my team of assistants). When the episode was over, he'd be shocked and bewildered. It was as if he didn't know what had happened or why. I found it quite upsetting. There was a really lovely and caring kid in there, and these attacks seemed to worry him as much as they worried us. Following an episode, he couldn't accept that it had happened, or explain it at all. He was also five/six years old when he was with me.

I hope the ed psych will be helpful. And yes, you really do need to research the specialist provisions in your area.

Also please consider finding some training on restraint and passively defending yourself when these attacks happen. It's hard to explain to anyone just how much damage a small child with no 'off switch' can do. Despite our training, one of my assistants ended up in hospital after one of his 'flips'.

Littlefish · 10/05/2023 20:41

It sounds like your poor ds is completely and utterly overwhelmed in the school environment.

He is communicating this overwhelm very clearly.

Have a look at Autistic Burnout.

Littlefish · 10/05/2023 20:38

NDandMe · 10/05/2023 19:02

Oh, and he absolutely melts down when directly told what to do - more like a volcanic eruption.

I have to come at it sideways and distract him or ask him to help me with a job upstairs, or make it a race, just to get him into bed. Otherwise he will scream/punch/kick me. For an hour or more.

I agree with a previous poster about researching PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance).

Have a look as well at Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria which is often co-morbid with ADHD.

NDandMe · 10/05/2023 20:28

Oblomov23 · 10/05/2023 20:23

Ask for this to be moved to the SN section and your'll get great advice and support. The Senco is not your friend, stop being fobbed off and wise up to the idea that no one cares like you do for your sons priorities, if she was they'd have applied for EHCP already. You need to be more savvy, find out what you need to know, and fight for your son.

This feels really unnecessarily harsh. I'm doing exactly what you're implying I'm not doing...

OP posts: