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Original poster

Secondary school place ASD/EHCP already falling apart

35 replies

onthegrindbaby · 17/09/2021 11:23

Last week my DS started secondary school. He has ASD, but was only diagnosed shortly before covid and never had major adjustments made in primary. They refused to apply for an EHCP ('didn't meet the threshold') and in the end I did that myself, because I knew he would struggle majorly with transitioning to secondary. He now has a place in a small classroom in a small mainstream school. As far as accommodating schools go I think it fits the bill, but basically none of the transition activities recommended by the EP have happened and things have fallen apart much quicker than I expected.

So here we are, he is refusing to go to school today and I don't know what to do. I try to use PACE (playfulness, acceptance, curiosity, empathy) as recommended by the EPs here. It's also my preferred method and what got him into school in primary. But I'm finding it difficult to know what I can ask/expect in accommodations to lower his anxiety while all this is new.

He's having a quiet day. No screens allowed because no school. But what do I do come Monday, or whichever next day he refuses to go in again.

Does anybody have any ideas?

OP posts:
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MackenCheese · 24/10/2021 14:16

Thanks for replying @Overworkedrobot. My preference is really the small independent SS which is full. The state SS which is further away is the one the SENCo said is overfull of mostly SEMH children and I'm not convinced it would be a good fit.

Thanks for the tip about the independent MS school. I know all the needs wouldn't be met, but the need for some independence, small classes, some familiarity with the school environment and knowing some of the pupils could go a long way towards him actually wanting to go in. Tbh because of his spiky profile I'm not convinced his needs would ever be met in a school, but if he has an EHCP and they are happy to have him then most of the adjustments could hopefully be discussed/made.

Overworkedrobot · 24/10/2021 12:36

Here is the guidance for education for those unable to attend school. The legislation that covers it is s.19 Education Act 1996. And under section 42 of the CAFA 2014 because DS has an EHCP the LA must provide the provision specified and quantified in section F. A combination of some time in school and some medical needs tuition is possible, more likely if you agree set days.

There is no guarantee the tribunal will order additional assessments, they could rule based on what evidence is already available, and it is reports that often win tribunals.

I'm going to be brutally honest, as DS is struggling to make it in to school at the moment do you really think an ARP is going to work? It will still require DS to attend some MS lessons, and you still have to get him through the gates of a MS secondary. It is unlikely to be able to provide the high level of therapies DS needs either.

As well as the SS you have looked at have you looked at Church Lawton? Also, some of Witherslack's schools - particularly Cedar House and Ponteville if within travelling distance, they don't offer A levels but do offer GCSEs and A levels are a while away, the school that bests meets his needs now may not be the same one that does at 16. Depending on where you are in Manchester Alderwasley Hall and Breckenbrough may be just about within travelling distance - although could equally be too far.

Mackencheese the LA should not delay starting medical needs tuition because evidence is not available immediately, the guidance is clear on that. That LA must also provide any other provision specified and quantified in section F. If the LA do not provide what is in section F and do not have medical needs tuition in place for after half term threaten Judicial Review.

There's no legal definition of full, and, being 'full' is not enough of a reason to refuse to name your preference. The LA have to prove they are so full it is incompatible with the efficient education of on of others or use of resources. The bar is relatively high, higher than merely an adverse effect, impact on or prejudicial to. The exception being if the school you want is wholly independent, where you need an offer of a place.

It is possible to get an independent MS named. You need to prove either the LA's offerings can not meet DS's needs, or if is not unreasonable public expenditure. For more information look here. However, before mentioning this as an option think carefully whether it can meet DS's needs, including the need for therapies.

I agree with both of you about DC being at home full time. DS1 has an EOTAS package via his EHCP, it isn't perfect because he is at home and if there was a suitable school he would be going, unfortunately it is the only option for now.

MackenCheese · 24/10/2021 10:56

An essay from me too!! I am totally with you OP (different LA though). I've had nearly a year of my son being mostly at home and I agree it's oppressive... Sad

MackenCheese · 24/10/2021 10:53

Thanks for asking, @ onthegrindbaby My ds is still at home, so he has not gone into school AT ALL this term, so way over the 15 days. The LA have still not put any education into place because they waited for the last minute to say that he DOES have to have a GP lettter and it took me a week to get that as the GP is not seeing anyone.... aargh! Anyway the letter has gone in now.

We had the annual review as I said where the LA agreed to special school, and they are pressing me to state which one. But when I made my suggestion, which is out of county - but our nearest as the crow flies - the LA tried to insist on the LA special school which is further away. The school I proposed is full btw. I decided to ring the LAs proposed school and speak to the SENCo who potlitely informed me that their school is running at 120% capacity because the LA keep shoehorning more children in. So now their lovely class sizes are no longer small and it is compromising the education of the existing pupils. I know he can't refuse my ds, but coupled with the fact that the pupils are mostly SEMH I don't think it would suit my ds.

I agree with you that it is harder to find schools for high functioning ASD if they are able. My ds also has a radar for autistic children and we could risk him being unhappy and avoiding school. Some children in this situation are happy to finally "find their tribe" and other, like my ds might not be, so it's a risk.

So now it's half term, but I will be contacting another SS in another county that does support HFA and also a small independent mainstream school that my ds went to when he was tiny. It is small and nurturing, walking distance 5 minutes (so would be good for his independence and there would be no transport costs), a couple of the kids are still there from Year 2 when he left, and according to their 2021 inspection report 25% of the kids have special needs. Only one with an EHCP though. So I willl give them a ring and have a chat. My Ed Psychologist says there is not point naming a school that doesn't have places, so fingers crossed! Given that SS places are so hard to find, does anyone think the LA would fund such a place at the independent school, and put in the support from section F?

Original poster
onthegrindbaby · 24/10/2021 00:54

Thanks @Overworkedrobot I see I'm not paranoid in thinking school might be trying to use the hospital school to off roll. I've had a quick Google on the law around this, but can't work out what his rights are wrt an out of school provision. Ideally, I'd like for him to have the option to go in on days he feels like it and have tuition at home/virtual for the other days. He has an extra curricular activity he likes on one day and seems to be more okay with the timetable of some days than others. He manages to come in most days, albeit late, and until the tribunal at least, I'd like to have a combination of online or at home tuition and of going in. Maybe a 2/3 or 3/2 day split. I think he would be happy with that.

I didn't manage to get independent reports for the tribunal. No time/money/energy right now. I know it's not ideal, but realistically the best I can do is, I think, to see what additional assessments the tribunal agrees to and then add my own independent ones as needed. It's taking me all strength to just do the basics of this process (hence the advocate) and I just don't know how to manage more than that at the moment.

I've looked at independent SS for my other DS, so have a bit of an idea what's around. It seems such a big step though, from kind of managing in primary (some years better than others) to a small setting outside of our community with children who mostly struggled in MS much more than him.

I might as well say that our LA is Manchester, any people involved in this situation will have recognised it by now. I've visited Inscape and Rossendale. Not sure which other schools would fit him, really. Most SS seem to not have autism as their primary focus and I do think that he needs that. Plus a setting that can teach him towards good A levels.

Ideally ideally, he'd be in a Montessori type school. I think he's thrive there. I've been looking at the online version of the democratic school in Hebden Bridge - but that would mean he will be home full-time and I'm not sure I'm ready for that. I've just managed to get his brother back in full-time after three years of flexischooling and the thought of having a child at home all the time is quite claustrophobic. If all avenues are closed I will be okay with homeschooling or EOTAS but I want to give it this year at least.

To be honest, I think we need to try a good RP in a good school before going to a SS. But maybe that's wishful thinking and me not accepting fully that he really isn't coping. I think that's what his current school and the advocate are starting to think.

Sorry for the essays. It's helping me sort out my thoughts but they do go on a bit.

OP posts:
Overworkedrobot · 23/10/2021 20:57

The LA, it is them who are responsible not the school, do not need to wait until DS has been absent for 15 days. Medical needs tuition should commence as soon as it becomes clear DS will miss 15 days. DS must not be deregistered from the current school. Do not allow DS to be off rolled, some schools try.

The tuition can take various forms depending on DS's needs. It could be home tutoring, hospital school, online or small group tuition. It should be the equivalent of full time, although as it is small group or 1:1 that does not mean full time school hours as the content is covered quicker.

Separately as DS has an EHCP the LA must provide any provision that is specified and quantified in section F.

If tribunal is in a month you do not need an early review as well. Have you got independent reports for tribunal?

Have you looked at independent SS?

Original poster
onthegrindbaby · 23/10/2021 18:52

Just thought I'd update, for anybody interested and to write my thoughts down. How is your DS getting on, @MackenCheese?

We're a month further and he's close to his 15 days of absence. School say he's engaged when he makes it in and I can see at home he's getting at least some good things out of it. His halfterm report card was great (much better than in primary, and apart from the attendance figure, obviously) but he is still adamant that school is boring and he much rather be at home.

School has said they will 'press the hospital school button' as soon as he hits day 15. @Overworkedrobot , could you please tell me what this mean in practice? Will he be deregistered from his current school or will he remain enrolled (ie can he come back if he feels like going)? Is it a virtual school or can they make him go into another setting? We have a meeting after halfterm to discuss next steps but I'm nervous that hospital school means quietly unrolling him, and I can't ask them until next week now.

Communication with school has improved, though, and we're talking about a 'reset' after halfterm with more adjustments and a later morning start time. Still, I don't see his reluctance to go in will change easily if at all, even with these provisions.

In the past week I found out there is actually an inclusion head who knows autism provisions very well. Why she wasn't involved in communications until recently I don't know, but at least there now is someone to talk to who understands - and hopefully they are sincere in saying that they want to work on a solution that is best for him. And not just go for deregistration to save their attendance figures.

I'm documenting everything for tribunal. If anything, this process has shown that he needs much more adjustments than thought and that he has the potential to do very well when he is academically/creatively challenged. Exactly the reasons why I applied for an EHCP. A bit of a bitter victory, but still.

School wants to ask for an early EHCP review; my advocate thinks adjustments can be made during tribunal (we're also appealing sections B and F, I think it is). Both want more assessments done and the LA to pay for it. Not sure if tribunal or early review are that different, as long as the plan changes it's fine with me.

What he really needs is an academic school with an autism-friendly environment where he can follow his interests but also be taught by teachers who love their subject. In our LA the choice seems to be either engaging academics or autism-friendly, no place that seems to do both - and he's just not going to do well in one without the other.

I just want to hug him and make it all okay. There are so many children like him. Why is getting it right so hard?

OP posts:
monstrousmayhem · 28/09/2021 20:17

Mackencheese complain to the director of children's services threatening Judicial Review. If the threat doesn't work contact SOSSEN for help with a pre-action letter.

Original poster
onthegrindbaby · 28/09/2021 18:10

That's the thing, their place in mainstream is so fragile but if your DS is anything like mine, school finds it very hard to see his anxiety - until he completely digs his heels in. I was very happy with the EP who assessed his needs, because she named so many of the small telltale signs, and then his class teacher confirmed that he saw these things daily. But on the surface he seemed like just a quiet, performing average kid in the back of the room. In Y6 it only took one genuine conversation between him and his teacher to put him on the right track for the rest of the year. I'm very sad I didn't manage to get the same for him in secondary. They seem so busy with whatever, but like with so many of these underfunded overstretched services - it would save so much time, money and effort in the long term if you set things up well from the beginning.

OP posts:
MackenCheese · 28/09/2021 16:21

Yes, well everyone kept telling me he was very bright and would be fine in a mainstream school, but as soon as the hormones hit him (and the lockdowns) he was a different child and his anxiety went off the scale. He definitely wanted the high school experience with all his friends, so I know I'm not entirely to blame, but his brain had other ideas and just effectively shut down. Bloody COVID-19!!!! Angry

Original poster
onthegrindbaby · 28/09/2021 15:48

That sounds promising @MackenCheese . I hear you on the mainstream school. Esp for my other DS my feeling was that he'd feel/do better in a specialist setting. But he wanted to whole high school experience (too much anime watching) and so I decided I wasn't going to fight him on this and went with the ARP the LA offered, just to say we tried if it didn't work. So far he's been doing well. Some wobbles in the first week but the ARP has his back and he (and I!) Can see he can trust them to argue his cases with mainstream teachers etc. Question is how this will pan out next term when his teachers want to move him to all mainstream classes based on his academic potential. It's clear to me that it's the small nurturing group he is in now that makes the whole thing feasible for him. The ARP seem to get this but if school doesn't, we might end up in specialist anyway. Which would be a shame, because he is more than capable of a mainstream school as long as he has a safe and understanding base.

OP posts:
MackenCheese · 28/09/2021 15:40

Well today we had a bit of a breakthrough, @onthegrindbaby in that ds was happy to talk to the SENCo on the phone, having declined to do face time on Teams earlier in the week. They have arranged to speak again later in the week. He is well over the 15 days with no education this term and the LA are missing in action; cannot get hold of anyone, just answerphones and out of office messages Hmm.
Finally got a date for the annual review next month, so onwards! I am so regretful that I listened to other people and put him in a mainstream school....

Original poster
onthegrindbaby · 28/09/2021 15:24

@MackenCheese I'm sorry to hear you're also in this boat. Are you getting anywhere by talking to school/senco? I feel as if I'm talking into the void, it's so strange. Now they are slowly catching up with classroom adjustments but DS is already in the next phase where he needs help and understanding just to come in at all.

He had another refusal day yesterday and I got him in on the basis that he could use his time-out pass to not be in class today, but in school they said it's only for short breaks when he gets overwhelmed. He's been great at articulating what he needs (ie today he was okay with doing schoolwork but not in class) but school doesn't seem interested at all, just trying to toe their own (unspecified, unarticulated) rules.

I'm going to use next week's meeting to document everything for tribunal and will contact the original LA caseworker, since the one responsible for the appeal has gone AWOL.

OP posts:
Overworkedrobot · 26/09/2021 20:36

Mackencheese the LA should be providing education. DS doesn't need to have been absent for 15 days already, provision should begin when it becomes clear a pupil will miss 15 days. It doesn't need to be consecutive days either, it can be cumulative for ongoing conditions. If you had a section F the LA would need to provide the provision in there too.

MackenCheese · 26/09/2021 18:04

Thanks for replying. Yes, it was written without a Section F at all! I'm so cross I hadn't spotted it before. I have an email string going with the LA and due an annual review next month, where I plan to pick the ehcp apart and start again, including Section I because clearly the school - despite having an asd ARP- aren't meeting his needs if I can no longer get him through the door!
Sorry to hijack the thread, but wanted the OP to know there are others who are still trying to get the secondary school placement right, and it's not too late Sad

Toomanyminifigs · 26/09/2021 16:05

@MackenCheese I'm sorry to hear this. I believe that if your DS has missed more than 15 days of school, the local authority must make some sort of alternative provision for him. I'm not an expert though - hopefully someone will be along soon to clarify.

If you feel you're not getting anywhere with the school. You need to contact the local authority. It is they who are actually responsible for delivering your DS's EHCP. You need to start a paper trail with them.

What are the school saying/doing to try and help him?

Are you saying that the Plan has been issued without a Section F at all? Or just a badly written one?

Have you contacted Ipsea or SOS!SEN?

MackenCheese · 26/09/2021 10:41

Can i join? My ds hasn't gone into school this TERM (year 9). We've had a failed transition to secondary school because of the primary schools refusal to apply for an ehcp. So he went off to mainstream secondary, and sank like a stone. I applied for an ehcp in year 7 but now have to appeal on section F which is completely missing from the plan! I've not heard of Pace, thanks. Just keeping an email trail with the school and talking to the SENCo daily...

Overworkedrobot · 25/09/2021 19:45

The bar for incompatibility is relatively high - case law shows it is more than a matter of showing an adverse effect or impact. The LA unsuccessfully arguing incompatibility for at least 2 other pupils means I wouldn't trust a word they say. The 2 ongoing appeals are irrelevant, case law indicates the LA have to show how admitting DS would be incompatible not how admitting all pending appeals would be.

You can argue for an ARP place, although as Toomanyminifigs posted you will need evidence the ARP is necessary.

Are the details of the quiet space expanded on in the EHCP? If so, and if specifies a sensory area etc. complain, then threaten Judicial Review if necessary.

I empathise with no option being perfect. DS1 has an EOTAS package because of a lack of suitable school. EOTAS isn't perfect, but it is the only option as school can't meet DS's needs and would be detrimental to his physical or mental health.

Original poster
onthegrindbaby · 25/09/2021 18:36

@Overworkedrobot yes, the school is over capacity to the point where the LA are arguing incompatibility with efficient education of others/use of resources. Two children have already got a place this year through tribunal and according to LA there are two more appeals running and, basically, 'the tribunal can't keep adding children'.

So since we're appealing B, F and I it might still be possible to go for the ARP in the preferred school, instead of a mainstream place? Esp since he is struggling?

It is a much wanted school also for parents with NT children. It is one of the nearest schools for us and fits both children's needs, so I was clear from the beginning this was my preferred school. Which was maybe too honest because the whole EHCP process seems to have been an effort by the LA to steer both children away from it.

@Toomanyminifigs The EP report says that it should be possible to meet his needs in a mainstream high school where staff have a good understanding of autism. However, they will not be met without considerable planning and attention to detail. QED, I guess.

His current school actually cited their lack of autism knowledge when they refused to have my other son. Plus two other mainstream schools said they thought DS needed more autism support than they could offer, so there is enough evidence to argue he needs at least an 'autism aware' school. I'm not even sure at this point the senco is a qualified senco; according to the senco of DS's primary school she (or whoever was present at their school-to-school transition meeting) was an 'acting senco'.

The EHCP has a provision for a quiet space for him, but yes - they didn't have that in place from the get go. Neither a place to go to during unstructured times. And even now, the time out card is for a quiet room to do his work, not a sensory area to calm down.

It's horrible to see him falling and I feel very mean for threatening no screens. He was at that line of calculated refusal rather than full-blown overwhelm like last week. But seeing how mad he is today (not speaking to me), it was probably too much. Back to PACE, I guess. I just feel so torn between his needs now and his needs for the future, plus the pressure to conform from school and not being seen as the reason he's not going in.

By now no solution seems to tick all boxes. ARP with his brother will be a hard classroom experience for him. He's less robust in his autistic self than his brother, if that makes sense, and will likely sink quietly back in to the back row like in primary. They also don't get on well, so it might not work to have both in the same space.

His current school has a focus on subjects that he cares about and I can already see that he is more inspired than before, despite the issues. It is also supposedly good for pastoral care, and might be able to sort things out with a tighter EHCP and people telling them what needs to be done. But I can see it becoming a tedious struggle for every single new issue that comes up.

I want a school that knows what to expect. They are my first children and I clearly am not qualified to tell the school how to do their job. It's been such a revelation to talk to my other son's ARP staff. Proactive, to the point, understanding and none of that awkward 'why is she being so overprotective/difficult. He is fiiiiine in school'.

I don't know about other schools. Maybe I'm just too stuck on the unfairness of not getting the preferred school but I find it hard to let go when it could meet all his needs and is in walking distance.

OP posts:
Overworkedrobot · 25/09/2021 17:34

Being 'full' (which isn't legally defined) is not enough of a reason to refuse admission, the LA have to prove they are so full it is incompatible with the efficient education of others or use of resources.

The EHCP can be amended following the AR. However, it will be easier to sort this now at tribunal than potentially needing to appeal again to get further provision written into section F.

If the LA are barred (which won't necessarily be automatic, see this case law) the Tribunal will be decided without them present at the hearing, although they can apply to be reinstated.

Personally I wouldn't ban screen time at weekends in order to get DS in to school. Screen time is likely to be DS's way of decompressing.

The SENCO seems to have very little autism awareness. How can they only just be giving DS a time out card, is it not in the EHCP?

Toomanyminifigs many ARPs won't be named as a separate provision in section I. Most will have the school named in I and the ARP in section F. See here.

Toomanyminifigs · 25/09/2021 16:56

If you haven't already, try and get through to Ipsea. They have a special tribunal helpline: www.ipsea.org.uk/tribunal-helpline

It sounds like you need some specialist advice - and quickly. I know you say you have an advocate: what are they advising?

My Ds's EHCP is also pretty new so I'm afraid I don't have much experience myself of how these things work. I think that you can name the RP in section I even if it is full - as being full isn't a good enough reason on it's own for them to turn him down. Obviously it will strengthen your case if you have specialist reports stating that your DS needs to be in a RP.

Are there any other settings you would consider? Any out of borough or independent schools?

It must be so hard to know what to do. Do you think if sections B and F were tightened up then it's worth continuing with the school he's currently at?

The other thing you can do is call an emergency annual review. You don't have to wait but as you've got a tribunal coming up, I'm not sure how that would work.

Well done to you and your DS for making it through the week. My DS needs so much support and scaffolding just to get through the day and it is exhausting.

Original poster
onthegrindbaby · 25/09/2021 16:04

Thanks for checking in @Toomanyminifigs and everybody for your support and advice. It's been such a lonely road.

DS has been in every day this week, albeit late each time. Yesterday morning was tricky, but after I said no screen time for the weekend if he didn't go, he got ready.

School have started to make some adjustments like a time out card but it's slow and I don't get the feeling they really understand what this transition is like for him. During our ad-hoc meeting the Senco said a few times that she understood that he needed x, y and z, and that actually all students would benefit from these things. When I hear this I just get so frustrated, because I think they just don't see how he NEEDS needs those things, just to be able to be there.

He is still sullen now, angry with me and his brother (who has a placed at a resourced provision, which I think he's jealous off) and I'm wondering if an RP is the way to go for him too. Problem is that his brother's RP is good but in a rubbish school and I hoped DS would be able to escape the experience of a harsh class environment to be able to access the support he needs.

In the meantime the LA have not submitted an attendance list for the hearing, after the tribunal had given them an extended time for that. Or if they did, they haven't sent me a copy. Does this means they are now barred, as the tribunal order said they would be? And if so, what does that mean?

The school I'm appealing for has a RP too but it is so full, I'm not sure the tribunal will give him a place even if the LA is not allowed to reply to our appeal.

I want to look into more/private assessments, but to be honest it's taken all my fight to get here and I'm not sure how much more energy I have left beyond the day to day. Maybe it would need to wait for the annual review in Spring. Is that a possibility, to amend the plan at that stage based on new assessments?

OP posts:
Phineyj · 24/09/2021 20:03

There is a Facebook page called Not Fine In School that might be helpful if school refusal does happen. Good luck.

At a very minimum they should sort a quiet space for him to sit if overwhelmed and a time out card to access it.

Toomanyminifigs · 24/09/2021 09:03

How are things going with your DS now @onthegrindbaby? Has he managed to attend school this week?

sleeponeday · 23/09/2021 01:27

The best advice I can give is to read the Code, slowly and carefully and with highlighter pens to hand. (My child's school love me!) A lot of what you have said already clearly breaches it.

IPSEA offer excellent advice on what an EHCP should look like. Unfortunately, most don't. They read as a friendly list of helpful suggestions, and not a mandatory, and clearly enforceable, minimum level of provision. Provision must be specific and usually quantified as has been said - where, when, for how long, for how often, and who by.

Sadly to get a reasonable level of provision usually takes appointing independent experts. LA and NHS ones are chary about suggesting anything that could cost any money. If you can afford it, an independent SLT and OT can be worth their weight in gold. If a reputable clinician states something needs to happen, a judge will probably order it, and LAs know that.

It's silly because with good support, so many ASD kids could thrive in mainstream. Crashing out from lack of it is why independent specialist schools thrive instead.