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Original poster

School named in EHCP are saying they cannot meet my son's needs. - advice please

57 replies

Havannah · 30/09/2015 16:05

My 5 year old has a diagnosis of ASD and an EHCP naming the school which he has attended since September, but I learned at a meeting today that they say they cannot meet his needs because of lack of funding to continue pay for a 1 to 1 which they consider he needs. They also say that whilst there has been a TA with him at all times, and that has been funded till Xmas, that he really needs someone who is trained to manage his behaviour, and the TA they've got till Xmas isn't. I got the feeling in the meeting that if the funding was there there wouldn't be a problem. They are saying he should go to a special school, but I want him to stay where he is because he is so happy there. The behaviour they complain of at school (throwing chairs etc) comes as a shock to me because when he is with me he is quite well behaved. They say they need someone with him who is trained to deal with such behaviour. He is a bright boy, but he does need fairly constant bringing back to task.

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BrucieTheShark · 25/11/2015 08:13

Good for you. I'm sure he could have a couple of 'illnesses' as well before the end of term.

Honestly I would go and visit the special schools. You may change your view but if not you can say you don't want them for your DS from a position of knowledge. Otherwise they will argue that you don't know what you're turning down. Go and ask lots of difficult questions!

If you do hire a behaviourist, look into caudwellchildren.com for a possible funding grant. You need evidence that an approach works for your son before you're at all likely to get local authority funding sadly.

Original poster
Havannah · 23/11/2015 18:02

Thank you - I am going to contact someone from bacb to see if they can advise how best to persuade the LA to fund them. At the moment my argument would be that, broadly speaking TEACCH methods have been tried. Now that I am in Norfolk they use something called Norfolk Steps, which is derived from the principles of TEACCH. Those methods have been tried with my son yet still they cannot manage his behaviour. Furthermore, the teacher overseeing the TA & my son is a STEPS trainer, so they can't very well argue that it has not been properly carried out. Any state school within the county (mainstream or otherwise) will be using the same methods, which clearly do not work for my son. Since seeing the paperwork relating to his EHCP review I am more convinced than ever that my son should not be at one of the special schools his current teachers suggested - it reveals that upon the recommendation of someone from one of the special schools my son is not permitted to go outside at all, and he is kept isolated from the other children. (And this despite the fact his EHCP presently states that he needs ample opportunity to exert himself physically so he can use up excess energy). My son's teacher has even admitted that the main thing that a special school would offer would be a larger number of staff who have her qualification - but if she has applied her learned strategies to little or no avail then why would having 5 teachers applying those same principles have any better effect?! Clearly a different & individualised approach is needed, but the only way we will know what works for my son is by having his behaviour professionally analysed. At the moment, at home, I am getting better results than the school by using my knowledge of my child and my instinct as to what is right. I am sure that I use methods that, because I am so close to the situation, I could not begin to write down to enable those methods to be replicated by someone else.
I am only stopping myself from pulling the plug on the school because there are only 4 weeks left, and because I hope to be able to get LA assistance to give him the education he needs, initially at home, and then back at school. I'm literally counting the days!

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BrucieTheShark · 21/11/2015 22:53

Agree with you re making him use his brain - and that he responds to you because you have the ultimate sanctions at your disposal!

But there is positive reinforcement and positive reinforcement. Having someone who is qualified to the hilt and who has spent weeks/months/years collecting data and setting up and modifying a detailed schedule of reinforcement specifically tailored for your child, is a world away from the lame half-hearted ideas or sticker charts some so-called professionals wheel out time after time. Not trying to cause offence to brilliant practitioners in schools of course Wink

Original poster
Havannah · 20/11/2015 09:44

I forgot to say - whilst positive reinforcement works to some extent with my son, it works better coming from me than from others, and I think that is because he knows that I have a whole armoury of discipline tactics up my sleeve. The same positive reinforcement delivered by the school is not as successful. I think he needs to get to a point where he wants to do the right thing most of the time before he will be ready for a school environment. At the moment he becomes easily distracted by his desire to gain a reaction by being naughty. Reaching a fair level of attainment academically will give him something else to occupy his mind, and I think that will be the time he then chooses to behave because he will want to know more. This is why (against the advice of the school) I am pushing him to read, write and do maths every day. The school seem to think that the first thing to do is make him behave, without realising that the key to him behaving is to engage his brain.

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Original poster
Havannah · 20/11/2015 09:31

Thank you Brucietheshark - my idea is to have him learn within the home environment, taught partly by me and partly by external tutors. Because he will be in the home I will be around to reinforce discipline if needed. Hopefully, when he grows up a bit emotionally (he does seem to be maturing, just more slowly than a neurotypical child) and when he has a habit of good behaviour with a teacher other than me (albeit in the home environment) that habit will stay when the same teacher gradually reintroduces him to school. I know that the schools are unlikely to accept my intervention at school because I have already seen his present school's reluctance. I do think he will eventually be able to reintegrate to mainstream, and that is my aim, but at the moment his contrary and at times defiant behaviour means that in a school day he is not working apace his peer group despite his ability to do so. In one morning, at the school, he sometimes refuses to read all morning, yet on the same day & despite initial reluctance I can get him to read pages and pages - so, at the moment, to avoid him falling a long way behind I need to spend a reasonable time teaching him.
I realise that I will need to demonstrate that I am not simply wanting him to be at home - and in any event that is not the case as I would like him to be at a school, as long as it is the right school. The Ed Psych he has seen has said that he does not need a special school, so I do not think the LA could offer a special school or nothing - at least I hope not! If they did then we would just be back to him being at home, but without the assistance of the LA.

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BrucieTheShark · 19/11/2015 10:19

A behaviourist will also have a range of motivation strategies that do not involve confiscating toys or preferred activities. These punishments are effective as you have found, but positive reinforcement techniques are ethically preferred and more effective in the long term.

Some schools know they shouldn't be over-using punishments, yet sometimes lack the time, resources or knowledge to implement positive reinforcement schedules effectively. It seems you are experiencing this with your DS' school.

BrucieTheShark · 19/11/2015 10:14

The local authority might point out that it would be impossible to bring his behaviour into line to be school-ready, when he is at home with just you there.

Unless you are prepared or allowed to accompany him into school in order to reintegrate him, how will this take place? Even then, he needs to be able to generalise the desirable behaviour and level of concentration, so that he can do it with other adults. Do you have a plan for this? (Not having a go, just imagining what arguments might be thrown at you.)

I personally think that you need well trained one to ones that will be allowed to work with him both at home and at school - although the school integration may happen a little later and gradually. Obviously you can work with him at home as well, but they will want a plan for him to get back into school (they seem obsessed with this) ime.

Depending on the ethics of the local authority, they can use this as a tactic to either push him into a special school not of your choosing (you should visit special schools though as there might be a brilliant one). Or push you into HE to avoid setting up a personal budget.

Have you thought about asking the advice of a behaviourist? Have a look at bacb.com. There is a find/contact certificants section.

I would recommend this - we have been doing ABA with our son for over 3 years and would be lost without it.

Original poster
Havannah · 19/11/2015 08:17

I would like them to be allowed to threaten to confiscate toys or privileges for bad behaviour. I suggested that the teachers tell my son (when he is behaving badly) that they will ask me to take away his favourite toy - it is a tactic that works for me - but they tell me that they are not allowed to use such tactics. My son does not yet respond to them simply trying to explain that what he is doing is wrong or unsafe - he already knows that his behaviour is wrong, what he is trying to find out is what they can actually do about it, and it seems to him (and indeed me) that there is not much they can. He does not do things which he considers to be unsafe - so using that in an explanation is not effective with him either.
Don't get me wrong - it is not the teachers I am critical of - it is the restrictions they have to try to work within that seem ludicrous to me.

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BertrandRussell · 18/11/2015 23:55

". I can threaten to confiscate favourite toys but they cannot. My son laughs at their attempts to call him into line. what has happened to education? Why have teachers been so disempowered that pupils who are inclined to push boundaries become to difficult to handle? "

What would you like the teachers to do?

Original poster
Havannah · 18/11/2015 23:41

Well the upshot is that the SRB will not take my son. I have mixed views about that, but realising that at the moment the SRB has some very challenging kids there, and that my son could well learn how to behave more badly than he does now - I'm kind of relieved. There is going to be a review of his EHCP, which is great, because I can seek a personal budget. I also think I have now explored what the LEA can offer and have found nothing that will work for my son. His school say that they struggle to get him to work for 5 mins, yet today he worked for me for 50 mins solid quite happily on tasks I chose. From what I have heard my son really pushes the boundaries at school, and the trouble is that, when push comes to shove, there is no discipline available to the school that works with my son. I can threaten to confiscate favourite toys but they cannot. My son laughs at their attempts to call him into line. what has happened to education? Why have teachers been so disempowered that pupils who are inclined to push boundaries become to difficult to handle? There is just no contest - I can achieve in 5 mins more than the school can - because I am not fettered by ludicrous rules acceptable discipline. There is now no question - the LEA surely have got to support my decision to educate my son at home until his behaviour can be brought into line such that he can re-enter mainstream?

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IguanaTail · 17/11/2015 22:37

Havannah - good luck in the meeting. How long has the midday pick up arrangement been in place? Does school start at 8:30?

GruntledOne · 17/11/2015 16:42

Iguana, they're acting illegally because OP's son is entitled to be in education on a full time basis, and if they're asking for him to be taken home at midday they are excluding him without any basis in law for doing so. If they can't meet the child's needs on a full time basis they should be taking urgent steps to get advice on how they can meet his needs, not just sending him home. If they haven't got sufficient funding for that purpose they should have been beating on the LA's doors for more funding back in September or even earlier. And I must say, given that we are now well into the second half of the term, this can't conceivably be described as a short-term adjustment.

If this school can demonstrate, as it obviously can, that OP's son needs full time support, then clearly the cost of that on its own is going to be above £6000 per year, even before you start thinking about specialist speech and language and occupational therapy.

If he really can't cope in school full time, then the school should be talking to the LA about home tuition in the afternoons.

OP, I would be really, really concerned about the current school. Your son is entitled to be taught by teachers, not a TA, and he shouldn't be isolated as he is being. I suspect you really need to be looking at longer term permanent provision, not an arrangement whereby he has to cope with a different environment next term and then another radical change next September.

Original poster
Havannah · 17/11/2015 09:35

Thank you all for your advice. My son has remained at school for the time being, for half days. I think (and here I am hoping that the impression his teachers are giving is a correct representation of the general view of the school) that my son is doing much better. Whilst he spends most of his school time with just his TA, with the teacher popping in to check how things are going, they have started, for short periods, to have another, older child work alongside and with him, and from reports that seems to have gone well.
For after Xmas I have made enquiries about an SRB school which would (if they accept him) have him Monday to Thursday, with him returning to his present school on Fridays. That arrangement would be for a max 2 terms, with the aim to be to deal with his problem behaviour in that time so he could manage in the classroom at his present school.
I have a meeting with the school head tomorrow. Hopefully they will tell me that things are going a bit better and everything is set up for the SRB next term, but worst case scenario is that they decide to exclude him, which is far from the end of the world. I feel a lot calmer and less stressed about the whole thing - which has to be a good thing when it comes to bringing up any child!

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PeppasNanna · 16/11/2015 23:47

I was in the op situation twice.

Very able & high functioning boys but couldn't cope in mainstream even with 1-1.

How my LEA wishes i would H.E...
Both boys attend independent AS schools with transport. Both foing much better. Calmer accessing the curriculum.

My advice always is never ever remove your child. Let them exclude. Put it back on the LEA every single time.

The Education reforms are going to make it even harder for parents & children to access support & help.

An EHC plan doesn't have any worth if the school cant impliment whats in it!

Good luck op.

IguanaTail · 16/11/2015 23:36

How are they acting illegally? If the child is not coping and up till midday is proving just about manageable then it is a short-term adjustment, taking into account his SEN and recent upheaval with the house move
isn't it?

The pp is correct about funding - at secondary in mainstream a school where I worked used to have 24 TAs. They now have 4. The SEN has gone up.

Schools have to show where they have spent an imaginary £6000 before they can apply for any more. There is zero funding. Absolutely nothing.

GruntledOne · 31/10/2015 14:53

If the school is asking you to pick him up at 12 they are acting illegally. I would suggest you ask for an early annual review so that you can discuss in depth giving your son extra support and the possibility of flexi schooling.

Did your son have a speech and language or occupational therapy assessment for the purposes of his EHCP? If not, it could be worth asking for one with a view to checking whether he needs help with social communication and understanding, and whether he has sensory difficulties. Addressing those may well help a lot.

Original poster
Havannah · 09/10/2015 09:37

I know funding is the main issue for the school, but they could have been a bit more upfront about what was going on rather than telling me everything was going well and then calling a meeting to say he'd be out after Xmas. At the moment I am picking him up at 12.00 each day and I do think the teacher and TAs who deal with my son are trying to do their best for him - however, there are others at the school who seem to try to set him up to fail - this morning before school, for example - the playground is supervised (by the headmistress this morning). The gate through to the classrooms is usually shut, and I stand at the only other exit to the playground so my son can run but not run amok around the rest of the school. This morning the headmistress left the gate open and my son ran through it. Then the head said that we may need to rethink things. - I know that what she is angling for is getting him out of her school altogether, as quickly as possible. When she is not there other teachers manage to close the gate and do not obviously set him up to fail.
At the moment I am taking each day as it comes - but exploring alternatives. I'm certainly not going to make any hasty decisions, and if he is excluded then that isn't the end of the world.

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CurlyhairedAssassin · 08/10/2015 20:33

I hope find the right solution, OP. What I would say is that SEN provision at secondary level has really gone downhill due to terrible funding cuts. So you really need to plan ahead and realise that what may work in primary will probably be completely different at secondary. Secondary is a whole new kettle of fish - bigger, rowdier, generally more behaviour issues amongst the NT population as hormones and peer pressure start raging. Teachers have their hands full just keeping rowdy teens on task. A pupil with SEN can really struggle with the social side of things especially in a large school, whereas they might have just about managed in primary.

Unfortunately it's not a case of pointing accusatory fingers at a school and saying they are not providing the right support for your particular child. School budgets have been cut and cut and TAs are the first to go. Unless a child has a statement that specifically brings along with it funding for a one-to-one TA, then that child will in all likelihood get next to no TA support. Blame the government. Mainstream Schools know EXACTLY what individual pupils need and can request it from the local authority till they're blue in the face but a child has to be at the extreme of failing academically these days for any funding to be approved. It's extemely sad for all concerned, most of all the pupils.

And I actually get very cross at accusations from parents that school staff aren't doing enough or trying hard enough. They can only work with the resources they've got. They do care immensely that they cannot provide adequate support for pupils with more demanding behaviours. I know staff who are nearly having nervous breakdowns trying to support certain pupils with no resources whatsoever. When it comes down to it, mainstream education for some SEN kids is, in my view, no longer a good idea. If I had a child who was struggling in mainstream I would fight tooth and nail to get them into a special school with better staff/pupil ratios and specialist training.

Original poster
Havannah · 05/10/2015 14:14

I hear what you are saying Iougle, but I think some of the anxiety has come about because of a recent house move. I think for the moment he needs to have the time to feel secure at home.

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lougle · 05/10/2015 13:56

I don't want to bang on about special schools, but they do excel at taking the anxiety out of the school day. They would have his timetable as an intrinsic part of the structure and use it with him to create security.

Original poster
Havannah · 05/10/2015 13:38

I spoke to a friend over the weekend who asked me what I do when I need to cope with stressful situations - I said I organise my way out of it - I make plans and lists. Before this I had not seen my son's behaviour of repeating over his personal timetable as an indicator that he is anxious and stressed. Now I can see that I know what I have to do - I need to get him out of school altogether and perhaps, somewhere down the line, re-introduce him gradually. His academic education will not suffer (I knew that doing 2 Masters degrees would come in handy sometime!) but I can see that he has too many issues to work through at the moment to deal with any school.

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Neddyteddy · 05/10/2015 12:10

Maybe a part time time table might suit? Mornings only or two days a week?

BrucieTheShark · 05/10/2015 10:19

Lol yes! But if you keep doing it he will get used to it and forget it's there hopefully.

Original poster
Havannah · 05/10/2015 09:56

Thank you Brucietheshark - that is really helpful - I will look into it. - What's the bet that my son won't behave as soon as a video recorder is running?!

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BrucieTheShark · 05/10/2015 09:44

I think you're right to take him out of there.

But I really, really urge caution about calling it HE. Obviously you can ignore the following advice completely - sometimes you just need to go with your gut. But it's advice from someone who has been stuck in the mire of local authority shenanigans for the past 4 years.

If I were in your shoes, I would say that this school is clearly failing to meet need - they acknowledge this themselves. However you have evidence that your DS is perfectly capable of learning and behaving (take some videos of you and him at home). You do not feel he needs a special school at this stage and want to exercise your parental right to express a mainstream preference.

So you would like to line up an alternative mainstream school BUT he will need transition into that setting to be very carefully managed and gradual.

In the meantime you will begin tutoring him at home but you will need to agree a personal budget in order to find some other tutors and perhaps someone in an advisory role at a later date (e.g. to advise on school integration).

Then just start HE as you were planning. You can take your time about visiting schools, researching home tutors (it is good that he can generalise his good behaviour to other people - this is best started at home before transition into a school imo). It could take you years while you are happily home schooling.

But at least this way you haven't let the local authority totally wash their hands of any responsibility. And the effect is exactly the same but called 'education otherwise than in school' rather than 'home schooling'.

At any point in the future, if you have just had enough of the whole thing, you can then say, forget it I'm home schooling. So you have lost nothing. But you might gain valuable resources and support for the future if you do it this way.