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SEN

Here you'll find advice from parents and teachers on special needs education.

Please talk to me about dd1(3.7) and ASD/Aspergers

37 replies

DragonsDoHiccup · 09/02/2015 23:02

I've talked to her preschool, HV, And now seen the GP and not really got anywhere.

I get the impression they think I am being over anxious and just an incompetent parent. This is not helped by the fact that I do, indeed have a history of mental health problems -EDs, depression, self harm, and more recently, anxiety.

I really think there is "something" and I want her "labelled" before she starts school in September as I think she is going yo really struggle unless they give us an awful lot of leeway with settling in and stuff.

But preschool (which she attends very erratically due to mostly fuck knows reasons - but helped now by goin in later to avoid the playground crush etc) say she is fine. And on the days I can get her willingly there yes she is. But if I've forced her then afterwards she is wired, aggressive, doesn't sleep...

An example - please tell me if this is normal 3yo behaviour. She had a birthday party to go to at the weekend. This is very rare as she doesn't play with other children yet so doesn't really get invites.
She was very happy and excited to go. Got eagerly out of the car and walked happily yo the venue. Then refused point blank to go in the doors, screaming, crying, kicking. So we backed off. Looked through the window, talked about all we could see etc. still wouldn't go in. We spent nearly an hour looking happily through the window for her to kick off any time we went near the door. So I took her home.

Is that normal?

I haven't been able to potty train her. She won't walk anywhere she has to pass people on the pavements. She's obsessed with dinosaurs and space exploration. I can't get her to dress/undress herself. She won't draw or try to write. She has a very limited wardrobe that she will wear and kicks off at the suggestion of dressing up.

What do I do?

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SuburbanRhonda · 12/02/2015 21:48

Don't meant to bang on about this, OP, but any school that wants a full Reception class will tell you they are confident in supporting children with SEN.

Things to find out might be, how many children with SEN do they have in the school? If it's just a handful, it's easier to be confident. Do they have a fully qualified Senco and are their LSAs experienced and trained in supporting children with SEN?

Italiangreyhound · 12/02/2015 21:44

Thinking of you Dragons.

DragonsDoHiccup · 12/02/2015 20:31

Both choice #1 and 2 schools were very confident about assessing and supporting ASD. Choice 3 were a bit less so -so hopefully although it's a small school they should be able to provide SEN support.

Thanks for asking ItalienGreyhound. Smile Today has been interesting. She suddenly became scared of soft play having never been scared of it before. And it wasn't even busy! I get frustrated as it limits my life, and limits dd2 as well. There are toddler groups we can't go to as they play music throughout which sets her off. She can't really cope with shops in town. Days out at an attraction invariably end in melt down so we don't bother any more... Aargh! And it looks like I will need to buy duplicate pyjamas as well - she's refusing all pairs except her favourite which are in the wash - I should have seen this coming as I knew she was reluctant to wear the other pairs....

I've been meaning to get her a set of ear defenders for ages. Any recommendations?

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Italiangreyhound · 12/02/2015 13:43

DragonsDoHiccup (great name by the way) how is it going?

turdfairynomore interesting thoughts. My friend's son has some issues and he wears a hoodie, when he came I assume, and it helps to block out over stimulation.

coppertop thanks. I am a bit confused as the autistic spectrum seems to be so broad. School have suggested my dd may be on it but I am really not sure. Part of me wants to get her 'tested' to see but I am nervous about getting her labelled. She has dyslexia and they were reluctant to label her with that until she was 8 but I think I knew she had it from age 6. When I was told it just felt totally right that that was the case. But with autism I am just not sure. there seem to be so many areas where she is not typical' to me. Can I ask where I may find a really comprehensive list of what it means to be on the Autistic spectrum, please? Thanks again. I don't want to hijack this thread so have started one to ask about this at

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_educational_needs/2306866-A-really-comprehensive-list-of-what-it-means-to-be-on-the-Autistic-spectrum

turdfairynomore · 12/02/2015 00:13

Just a suggestion (from a p1 teacher with 26 years experience-not a parent) but you mentioned sensitivity to noise and I've seen this a lot in little ones with ASD and to me it makes sense. Think how you feel when trying to complete a task that's tricky and someone is talking/asking questions etc. You can't cope with the chatter/intrusion -even though It's maybe not very noisy-but it's just enough to tip you over because it's taking all your effort to do one thing & any noise us "too noisy". I think that's how ASD kids can be -and they may say "it's too noisy" meaning "it's an extra stimulus I can't deal with". I have used ear defenders/headphones quite successfully with some kids. Some are sensitive to the feel of them but a lot quite like the sensation of being "distant"?
I'd also day get as much underway as far as referrals are concerned before school. The system in school is ponderous!! It takes years -and with no exaggeration an enormous paper trail of "show what you've tried and the proof that it didn't work". It's no longer a case for a teacher (or parent) to "know" that there's an issue. You have to show how you know and show that you can't fix it by using "reasonable adjustments and relevant purposeful measures" over a period of time. In most case at least 18 months. Possibly more like 3 years! Sorry for the garbled thoughts! Dodgy kindle, drippy cold and tired eyes!!!

IsItMeOr · 11/02/2015 23:35

They have dropped the HFA and AS diagnoses now from the US and international manuals, it is all simply autism.

SuburbanRhonda · 11/02/2015 16:50

The forest school sounds lovely, OP, but you might be better off with a school with more experience with children with SEN. The school I work in is very inclusive and we also have a specialist S&L centre, so a high number of children with statements.

I don't think I've read of any situation on here where a parent of a pre-school child is worried how their DC will cope in Reception without thinking, "Oh, yes, we've had that!"

Smile
coppertop · 11/02/2015 09:40

Italiangreyhound - My ds1 was dx'ed with HFA and ds2 with AS. I was told that the difference was because of language development. Ds1 started to use single words at 3yrs old. Ds2 was 2yrs old, so technically still within a normal range.

It's a bit of a grey area though because ds2 still needed SALT as his words were mainly the names of numbers, colours and shapes. These days his medical records just refer to him as having autism rather than AS.

DragonsDoHiccup · 11/02/2015 08:37

The school I have down for first choice is a lovely one firm entry with forest school and a gentle atmosphere. I doubt we will get it though as it's further away. Our closest school though is also good but busier and 2 form entry, so that's #2

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DragonsDoHiccup · 11/02/2015 08:30

Sleep can be difficult. She mostly sleeps through now in my bed, but won't sleep without a battle and only seems to need 10-10.5 hours unless I'll.

I have her on a multi vitamin with omega 3. She gets offered home cooked meals every evening, some variety of sandwich plus fruit for lunch, and healthy snacks. She still breastfeeds as well (although I've been trying to wean her for 18 months now!) so gets a good supplement that way as well.

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DragonsDoHiccup · 11/02/2015 08:26

I think the difference between aspergers and high functioning autism is mainly that aspergers has no speech delay, but can come with some physical difficulties. But I believe the Americans now don't distinguish between them.

She doesn't hand flap or walk on top toes. She used to spin, but that has stopped and now just nail bites. She also makes eye contact although it tends to slide.

She's actually got another party this weekend and I was considering cancelling, but might just try going early instead - good idea thank you! X

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Simile · 11/02/2015 07:31

The gp may want to wait until school to see what behaviours the reception teacher picks up on. This will help rule put "parenting" problems.

The next party your dd is invited to get there early. Before loads of kids arrive. This will help your dd desensitize to the noise as she should be able to cope better if it builds up around her. Otherwise, as you discovered, the noise becomes like a physical barrier to her.

mactavish · 11/02/2015 07:11

Actually if you google Early Intervention for autism it seems more important that you do push for an early referral and diagnosis now. Take some articles with you to GP and insist.

mactavish · 11/02/2015 05:52

My DS (mild ASD) is nearly 6 and I still end up doing most of his dressing for him in the morning before school. He can do it but avoidance techniques are well developed and I've learnt to pick my battles to keep him in a good mood so he cooperates with more important things like with the teachers.

Toilet training is more tricky with our DS still having occasional accidents now. He does better when his self esteem is high, other times he doesn't bother to (makes no difference in his eyes). In the end I resorted to bribes of sweets for toilet training, as they were a rare treat they did the trick.

I would strongly second what another poster said above to ensure the physical side is kept tip top with healthy home cooked food, low sugar, loads of sleep. When DS is tired everything is a battle. Take supplements, Mindlinx, fish oil, magnesium, vit C.

Don't know why HV and GP won't refer you now, but not sure it make much difference to wait another 6 months anyway. Does she make any giveaway ASD gestures such as flapping hands when excited or hands out to the side when running? Walking on tip toes, etc. Write it all down and book another visit with GP for referral. Choose a nice gentle nurturing school, single form entry if possible, or small infants with great Senco and sympathetic head. It will make a massive difference.

Italiangreyhound · 10/02/2015 23:22

Without wanting to derail can I ask if anyone knows the difference between Autism and Aspergers, please? And also what the difference is for a girl as opposed to a boy?

Hope it is OK to ask this, OP?

coppertop · 10/02/2015 22:43

Ah the memories of the rows of identical clothes all in a row. :o

Good luck, Dragons. :)

DragonsDoHiccup · 10/02/2015 22:40

She goes through phases of being iPad obsessed. I could use that as a bargaining incentive tool, but sometimes she's not bothered by it either.

She has 4 identical pairs of joggers from jojo Grin

I think dressing is the thing to work on first. Then potty training. Then walking. The buggy is becoming really difficult to steer as she's not a small little thing any more!

Thank you everyone. I was having a little despondent moment

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IsItMeOr · 10/02/2015 22:11

Is there anything she really enjoys doing?

DS has always been screen obsessed, and his entire morning routine is structured around how much screen time he can get - so the quicker he gets through brush teeth and getting dressed, the more screen time he has.

Did I mention not to try to "fix" more than 1 or 2 issues at a time? So you could work on getting dressed until she gets that cracked.

And yes, I have always sourced DS's trousers on the basis that they are just pull on/pull off - Boden are good for that, for boys at least.

DragonsDoHiccup · 10/02/2015 19:50

Oh and she is perfectly able to dress and undress herself given the clothes we get her - joggers and long sleeve t shirts is all she will wear. She just won't try, or does try a little bit then give up all stroppy

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DragonsDoHiccup · 10/02/2015 19:49

Thanks for all the suggestions - lots for me to try!

I've actually bought her boy pants as they look more comfortable but I've yet to get them on her and we've had them 2 weeks.

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IsItMeOr · 10/02/2015 17:57

DS gets on much better with M&S pants than the (cheaper!) ones I tried from Sainsburys. So it might be worth trying a range of options clothes-wise (suspect you will already have done so!).

coppertop · 10/02/2015 13:53

"One weird thing - she won't point with her index finger but with her second - which looks a bit like her flipping the bird sometimes - is this an ASD trait?"

My ds (ASD) still points with his middle finger, which can look a little unfortunate sometimes.

For toilet training I had to use different approaches for my two, and neither of them 'got' it until they were 4yrs old.

Ds1 was open to bribery with stickers and could eventually be persuaded to sit on a potty chair, before eventually ending up with one of those toddler seats that fits under the toilet seat.

Ds2 had a lot of sensory issues with clothes, so part of the struggle was finding underwear that he could tolerate. He had a social story to explain what it was all about, and that was followed by around 6 months of gradually building up the amount of time that he spent in pants.

Dressing also needed different approaches.

Ds1 had a strip of laminated card with pictures of the clothes, in order, that he needed to put on. That helped with his need to always know what was coming next.

He also had physical difficulty with dressing so I had to gradually build up the amount he was able to do. With trousers I would do everything but the final pulling up of the waistband. Once he'd got the hang of that, he would pull them up from his knees, then from his ankles. Eventually he reached the point of being able to put just his second foot into the trousers, and finally he learned how to do the first foot too.

Ds2 was more a case of being able but extremely unwilling, mainly because he hated the feel of clothes on his skin. If we ever found an item of clothing he liked, we would end up buying at least three of them at a time. The OT suggested trying to de-sensitise him a little by doing things like wrapping him in a towel.

The lack of drawing and writing is definitely very normal for this age.

Italiangreyhound · 10/02/2015 13:25

DragonsDoHiccup you said HV and GP want to wait 6 months.

What do you want to do?

Just an idea but could you compromise and offer to wait3 months? If they are confident all is OK they may expect to see some significant progress within that 6 months so 3 months sounds fair. If after 3 things are changing and going well you may feel more confident and if there is little or no change they may see your point.

You could set yourself two or three simple targets, toileting, dressing and maybe one more to see how you do on those areas in three months and then review?

Or you could ask their advice, two or three things to work on. If they can see you are taking their advice or at least listening to their ideas they may be more open to listening to you.

Just an idea.

Italiangreyhound · 10/02/2015 13:20

DragonsDoHiccup not much advice but just wanted to say I hope things will get easier for you. My dd is pretty quirky and I always felt there were more issues there. As she got older she mostly calmed down and coped better. She was diagnosed with dyslexia a few years back and knowing that helped.

Please do not give up getting her the help you think she needs but do also enjoy the bits that go well and try and not worry too much.

Some of the things are normal (IMHO) e.g. not wanting to write at 3, and some might simply be you are more patient (looking through the window at the party) - some mums or dads might have given up long before an hour and gone home or might have bundled their little ones into the hall despite protestations. Lots of people think it is easy to get kids to do stuff by badgering, bossing and carrot and stick! But when you meet a child who really does resist stuff you find that no matter how much you badger you will not get your own way! We had this especially around clothes and I think dd has some mild sensory issues around clothing, nothing tight or uncomfortable etc.

You've got a second child not having these issues so I am pretty sure it is not you! Be confident in your own abilities and PLEASE do look after yourself and your own mental health in all this.

I think one thing to remember is, your child is your child, who you love, whether they are on a spectrum disorder or not, have an issue or a disability of any sort etc, they are still themselves. I needed to remind myself of this when dd was very difficult.

I also feel (IMHO) that one day or week or one action or whatever is not the whole picture and not to stress over every bit. But all the 'bits' together do help you to build up a picture.

Maybe keep a record or diary of behaviour, you could include in that things like food eaten as well to see if any foods (sugar or whatever) affect behaviour and also bedtimes etc to see if late nights have a negative effect.

This will help with remembering behaviour when you talk to professionals because it can be daunting and we can always forget what has happened.

If I were you, I would also record issues as and when they happen, what works or does not, just for you. Remind yourself of successes as well as problems.

For all the things you want to encourage her to do can you try sticker charts? With a small 'prize' you can afford? Extra TV, present from the charity shop, trip to the park etc? We did this for potty training and it worked well.

Try not to stress three is not old to be still potty training, IMHO. I know a few kids who were really not ready at three. You can make clothes easier to dress in and to get off for toileting by avoiding things with buttons or zips/fixers, just pull on trousers or skits and simple tops, not too tight.

For dressing with ds (4) we've tried races to get dressed, mummy against ds and just lots and lots of praise when they get it. You can see as you go along what works out. If she gets dressed herself could you give her star of the week or take her photo and put it up on the wall or whatever.

Some kids will find these things work.

Or at weekend you could say, once we you are dressed then we will go to the shops, into the garden, put on the TV, get out the game etc, but Mummy is only going to help a bit.

Really three is still so little, ds is quite bright but still needs help to get some things off or on and he is almost four and a half. All kids are different and they all feel the need to do things in their own time.

DD was very happy to dress herself at three but my friend's boy, although a year and a half older than my dd, was happy to be dressed by his mum when they were both preschoolers.

My dd is 10 now and I love her more than ever but she has challenged me a lot over the years, pushed me away and made life hard, she is just her, and part of my role as her mum is to get her the help she needs. It is not easy.

Good luck.

SuburbanRhonda · 10/02/2015 13:07

Agree with doris, the school will support her with or without a diagnosis and will look at how she presents in school and what she needs help with. Because in the end you and they will still need to manage your DD's behaviours, no matter what diagnosis she ends up with - if any.

I also agree that how the school manages SEN is crucial. Some are brilliant, others not so much. Do you know where she'll be going in September?

In my LA the school nurse service runs an enuresis clinic but you can't be referred until age 7, so clearly it's still considered within the normal range of development up to that point.