Racial Slur Left Up

BarbaraHoward · 2024-11-20T16:08:10+00:00

Hi MN I reported [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5213833-sil-christmas-cant-put-into-words-why-its-winding-me-up?reply=139951570&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share this post]] shortly after it was made this morning for using the slur "throw a paddy". I received an email saying it was being looked into, but despite a follow up email and then another report it's still up. I've reported this phrase many times over the years (I'm sure you're sick of it, but I do think it's important to challenge racist language when we come across it) and it's usually taken down straight away. As I said in the email, I know the poster probably isn't aware of the phrase's origins which is why I didn't want to derail the thread. I also, frankly, don't have the energy today to have that row yet again. Is there a change in moderating standards that means racist language is now left to stand? Should we be challenging everything on the boards?

Original poster

BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 15:40

nonbinaryfinery · 21/11/2024 15:08

Can it not be added to a list of phrases that mean a post or thread is automatically hidden for evaluation? I know some phrases are automatically hidden in that way so it makes sense that new ones could be added. @mnhq

I don't think it needs to be automatically hidden - there's lots of legitimate uses, for example on name threads or yer man who did a thing for Children in Need. But I did think it was deleted once reported and I'm disappointed with the apparent change in policy.

OP posts:

nonbinaryfinery · 21/11/2024 15:08

Can it not be added to a list of phrases that mean a post or thread is automatically hidden for evaluation? I know some phrases are automatically hidden in that way so it makes sense that new ones could be added. @mnhq

Original poster

BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 10:52

Hi @BeckyAMumsnet

Thanks for your reply. This appears to be a change in policy, as "throw a paddy" has been deleted as standard for years now. As I said, I know it's not often used with intent to offend, but it is an offensive term. I'm quite sick of educating on this one tbh and as you can see from this thread (and many, many others over the years) I'm not the only Irish member who feels that way. It always derails the thread and turns into an argument and I thought MN preferred to deal with it through reports.

Could you explain the change in policy? Has this been agreed at MN as a company or is it down to variation between individual moderators?

Finally - yes, the initial report was replied to, but not my follow up email or second report several hours later.

ETA - I reported another use of the phrase this morning, and that post has also been left to stand. Why?

OP posts:

MNHQ

BeckyAMumsnet · 21/11/2024 10:32

Hi there, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

When reviewing reported posts, we take into account factors like intent and context. For better or worse, it's clear most people using this term do not think it's a reference to Irish people and its origins warrant further examination. If the phrase were used intentionally as a personal attack, it would breach our guidelines. However, since many people use it without understanding its background, this might be a valuable opportunity to educate rather than simply remove all instances. We can understand if posters are frustrated that we don't always do what they want but to be clear MNHQ did answer the original report, and did investigate as promised.

Let us know if you have more thoughts - it's always helpful to hear different perspectives

nonbinaryfinery · 21/11/2024 10:24

BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 10:09

Racism isn't just about skin colour. It often is, and that's terrible, but it isn't just about skin colour. That's why I quoted the equality act definition - if someone was discriminated against at work because of their nationality or ethnicity, it would be racial discrimination regardless of their skin colour. That's what the law says and it isn't really open for debate.

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Discrimination is not necessarily racism. It can come from racism yes, but it's not the only method of discrimination which is part of my point.

We are going round in circles. Improperly assigning racism to white marginalised demographics doesn't help.

Original poster

BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 10:09

nonbinaryfinery · 21/11/2024 10:04

Sorry but you're wrong. Racism IS about skin colour, and white people do not experience racism because of their skin colour. Roma and Traveller people do absolutely experience prejudice, it's unfair and it's horrible, but it's not racism. It IS bigotry, and bigotry comes in many forms. Growing up I used to hear a ridiculous amount of anti Irish bigotry, especially when it was around alcohol as if people assumed they the Irish are always drunk and stupid. That is a deeply offensive thing to attach to an entire people, and the jokes made were awful. It's still not racism.

P*ddy is 10000000% a slur and shouldn't be used and I'm glad it's been removed now, but it's not about skin colour. I'm wondering if perhaps this would be a good time to suggest to @MNHQ an updated list of slurs be created, because gods only know we need less hate in the world, and we shouldn't have to fight for terms to be removed when they are upsetting and deeply offensive.

Do you think people here would be willing to help create an updated list for the site itself? It's a genuine question, a group collaboration to address this stuff.

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Racism isn't just about skin colour. It often is, and that's terrible, but it isn't just about skin colour. That's why I quoted the equality act definition - if someone was discriminated against at work because of their nationality or ethnicity, it would be racial discrimination regardless of their skin colour. That's what the law says and it isn't really open for debate.

OP posts:

nonbinaryfinery · 21/11/2024 10:04

BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 06:43

Irish people may (traditionally) have the privilege of white skin, I'm not denying that for a second. But Irish people, travellers, Jewish people, Eastern Europeans and probably others I can't think of at this hour have all experienced racism within the UK and Ireland.

The notion that racism is only about skin colour comes from the US I think, but it doesn't track here.

ETA - not least in the law. I posted the Equality Act definition last night.

Edited

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Sorry but you're wrong. Racism IS about skin colour, and white people do not experience racism because of their skin colour. Roma and Traveller people do absolutely experience prejudice, it's unfair and it's horrible, but it's not racism. It IS bigotry, and bigotry comes in many forms. Growing up I used to hear a ridiculous amount of anti Irish bigotry, especially when it was around alcohol as if people assumed they the Irish are always drunk and stupid. That is a deeply offensive thing to attach to an entire people, and the jokes made were awful. It's still not racism.

P*ddy is 10000000% a slur and shouldn't be used and I'm glad it's been removed now, but it's not about skin colour. I'm wondering if perhaps this would be a good time to suggest to @MNHQ an updated list of slurs be created, because gods only know we need less hate in the world, and we shouldn't have to fight for terms to be removed when they are upsetting and deeply offensive.

Do you think people here would be willing to help create an updated list for the site itself? It's a genuine question, a group collaboration to address this stuff.

Original poster

BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 06:43

nonbinaryfinery · 21/11/2024 03:07

That's not racism though. People shouldn't call it something it isn't. It is absolutely anti Irish but please don't call it something it's not.

Racism affects people that aren't white.

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Irish people may (traditionally) have the privilege of white skin, I'm not denying that for a second. But Irish people, travellers, Jewish people, Eastern Europeans and probably others I can't think of at this hour have all experienced racism within the UK and Ireland.

The notion that racism is only about skin colour comes from the US I think, but it doesn't track here.

ETA - not least in the law. I posted the Equality Act definition last night.

OP posts:

nonbinaryfinery · 21/11/2024 04:05

username358 · 21/11/2024 03:14

Is anti semitism or anti traveller/gypsy sentiment racist?

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Jewish people who are white do not experience racism. Anti-semitism yes, but not racism. Roma people are not the same as Travellers. White people in either group are not subjected to racism.

There are people within both demographics that might not be white, and in such cases racism will come into play. If they are white, then the prejudice applies to their status as Jewish and Roma people, not the colour of their skin.

A white Irish person faces prejudice yes, but it's not racism, and it shouldn't be painted as such.

username358 · 21/11/2024 03:14

nonbinaryfinery · 21/11/2024 03:07

That's not racism though. People shouldn't call it something it isn't. It is absolutely anti Irish but please don't call it something it's not.

Racism affects people that aren't white.

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Is anti semitism or anti traveller/gypsy sentiment racist?

nonbinaryfinery · 21/11/2024 03:07

JaneJeffer · 20/11/2024 20:42

It is anti-Irish sentiment

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That's not racism though. People shouldn't call it something it isn't. It is absolutely anti Irish but please don't call it something it's not.

Racism affects people that aren't white.

Original poster

BarbaraHoward · 20/11/2024 20:44

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 20/11/2024 20:42

I just followed the link to the post and can see it’s been edited now.

Aye just took seven hours, two reports, an email and a thread in site stuff. And they still haven't responded to me. And edited it rather than deleted. The poster probably doesn't even know.

Seriously pissed off, I thought we sorted this one years ago.

OP posts:

JaneJeffer · 20/11/2024 20:42

nonbinaryfinery · 20/11/2024 20:39

Paddy is an offensive slur yes, but it's not racist. Irish people are traditionally white are they not? Racism doesn't affect white people.

It is anti-Irish sentiment

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 20/11/2024 20:42

I just followed the link to the post and can see it’s been edited now.

Original poster

BarbaraHoward · 20/11/2024 20:42

🙄

In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality.

Yes, anti Irish slurs are racist.

That's another row I'm sick of having.

Shall we do haitch, gotten and Halloween while we're at it?

OP posts:

nonbinaryfinery · 20/11/2024 20:39

Paddy is an offensive slur yes, but it's not racist. Irish people are traditionally white are they not? Racism doesn't affect white people.

Raquelos · 20/11/2024 20:37

PomegranateKernals · 20/11/2024 20:10

I thought 'mick' in taking the mick was short for micturition. The posh word for pissing!

Cockney rhyming slang I always thought. Taking the Micky Bliss (no idea who he was though!!)

No need for offence to be taken on that one, although I am sure that won't stop some from trying.

username358 · 20/11/2024 20:37

BarbaraHoward · 20/11/2024 20:32

Too lazy to scroll, but I think that poster didn't want to type "paddywhack", not paddy.

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We're all learning something new today. I just looked up paddywhack and it's a derogatory name for an Irish person. Never heard of it.

blacksax · 20/11/2024 20:37

BarbaraHoward · 20/11/2024 18:21

Zero issues with that @blacksax , like I said I'm sure there's phrases that I use that are dodgy as hell, but I don't realise it. Happens to us all.

Raising that particular phrase on a thread always descends into an argument because people get defensive. Sometimes I think it's important to have the argument. Others I can't be bothered and just report.

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Agree with all of that. You don't know what you don't know, as they say, and in this day and age it can inadvertently trip you up and cause offence where none was intended.

Pointing out why something is unacceptable can be helpful, and even if the poster in question argues about it, at least other people can find out something they didn't know before.

Original poster

BarbaraHoward · 20/11/2024 20:32

username358 · 20/11/2024 20:30

Another poster wrote P.... for Paddy as though you can't say it. I just wanted to clarify that the name of many people in Ireland, is not offensive.

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Too lazy to scroll, but I think that poster didn't want to type "paddywhack", not paddy.

OP posts:

username358 · 20/11/2024 20:30

MagentaRocks · 20/11/2024 20:26

I know it is a name and I also know about the Irish stereotype and the having a paddy being about that. I didn’t think I needed to write the whole thing out as that is what the thread is about

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Another poster wrote P.... for Paddy as though you can't say it. I just wanted to clarify that the name of many people in Ireland, is not offensive.

Original poster

BarbaraHoward · 20/11/2024 20:27

MagentaRocks · 20/11/2024 20:26

I know it is a name and I also know about the Irish stereotype and the having a paddy being about that. I didn’t think I needed to write the whole thing out as that is what the thread is about

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Fwiw I interpreted your post in that way @MagentaRocks .

OP posts:

MagentaRocks · 20/11/2024 20:26

username358 · 20/11/2024 20:23

Paddy isn't offensive. Paddy is a name like John. It's a shortened form of Patrick/Pádraig.

'Have a Paddy' is offensive because it is making a reference to the stereotype of Irish people (Paddy), being aggressive and short tempered or having tantrums.

ETA and before anyone jumps on me referring to Irish people as Paddys is offensive similarly Micks.

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I know it is a name and I also know about the Irish stereotype and the having a paddy being about that. I didn’t think I needed to write the whole thing out as that is what the thread is about

Original poster

BarbaraHoward · 20/11/2024 20:25

Wtaf MN. Made it to the thread to delete @FierceQuiet 's duplicate post but haven't managed to comment or reply to my messages.

Seriously?

OP posts:

username358 · 20/11/2024 20:23

MagentaRocks · 20/11/2024 20:18

This is just unpleasant. If people don’t know the origin of something I don’t see why there is the need to call them names. I know the origin of paddy and why it is offensive but I had never heard of ‘Irish twins’ before until I saw it on here not that long ago. I would never have used those words as I didn’t even know it was a thing, and as I know it is offensive and why I wouldn’t use it for that reason also.

@KoalaCalledKevin i didn’t know uppity was offensive… off to look that up now.

ETA. For those that don’t know uppity was used by racist southerners towards black people who ‘didn’t know their place’. The article I read said it is racist when used towards black people because of this. I don’t think it is that commonly known though.

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Paddy isn't offensive. Paddy is a name like John. It's a shortened form of Patrick/Pádraig.

'Have a Paddy' is offensive because it is making a reference to the stereotype of Irish people (Paddy), being aggressive and short tempered or having tantrums.

ETA and before anyone jumps on me referring to Irish people as Paddys is offensive similarly Micks.