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Corpus 2

785 replies

TokyoBouncyBall · 11/05/2024 11:48

A summary would be good and I might do one later but Aston, data scraping, astonishing lack of contrition…

OP posts:
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Talulahalula · 02/02/2025 09:19

A couple of things (or maybe more):

Reflecting on this, I recall that Aston updated their ethics policies around using social media after the PhD debacle had started. The question would be whether this student’s PhD fits the new ethics policy, as it passed ethics initially with significant issues. It is quite hard to see how it does because a fundamental principle would be to act in line with the terms and conditions of the website, which is clearly not done if you work results in a lawsuit from the owners of the website. This is of course why Aston need to settle in some way with MN; I would guess neither party wishes to take it to court as costs would be high. But within Aston’s new ethics policy, is this research considered ethical?

The other reason Aston needs to settle with MN is because it seems that a substantial part (all?) of their research depends on data scraping or other uses of discussion forum content. It seems to me that they are using MN as a ‘control’ for the most part (the PhD is an outlier here) because otherwise their work uses extremist sites (eg about white supremacy) and dark web material. Nonetheless, in selecting their control, they seem to have thought about the well-being of their researchers (the Newshome and Grant paper upthread mentions reducing the amount of disturbing content researchers view, p113), but not about the ethics of being extractive and using sensitive material from eg adoption and infertility threads without any form of permission or consent which can then be linked back to users (as it can be in some cases, this was also true in the papers discussed in the previous thread; which also raises ethical issues). Second question: can the student and the supervisors guarantee that users will not be identifiable?.

These papers will have been done before MN asked them to delete the dataset but they demonstrate the issues. I cannot find any reference to ethics in the Newshome and Grant paper but that maybe because I was reading it on my phone.

The purpose of the Newshome and Grant paper is given as developing a framework that can be applied to the analysis of anonymous interactions on criminal online fora. In the Newshome and Grant paper, MN (the parenting discussion forum which is identifiable as MN) is clearly positioned as non-criminal. The problem with the PhD for MN and indeed users is that this is not the case for the PhD as I understand it, particularly in a context where people, primarily women, have lost their jobs for expressing their views in more public contexts and have had to take matters to court to defend their rights to hold certain beliefs.

Finally, with regard to the paper ArabellaScott links to, I read some of Jai McKenzie’s work when this situation started and I thought she did a very thorough and well-considered job of thinking through the ethics of digital research. She had sought permissions and indeed, as I recall, contacted users. Also her work was aimed at highlighting issues affecting women as mothers, as I recall, so was not extractive in the sense of ‘let’s just use this data to our own ends and further our careers’. I have not (yet) read the paper you link to, but seeing as Jai McKenzie is a co-author, I would be interested to read it as potentially offering a useful way forward (I will come back when I have read it). There are important issues to be grappled with here (just not the way the FoLD team at Aston have done it) in my opinion.

And finally, because there is surely an interesting paper here about how users of an anonymous parenting forum react when they find out they are the subject of academic research by people investigating language patterns and relationships of power and community in criminal contexts, let me note that I do not give permission for anyone to use what I have written on these threads or any others in any way for any linguistic or other research.

AlisonDonut · 02/02/2025 08:13

I think MNHQ need better lawyers. How can MNHQ fight this, when they are potentially being advised by a legal team that is linked to the Good Law Project who knowingly are anti-women?

I know we'd get banned if we say what we think but this is a disgrace, an utter disgrace.

ArabellaScott · 02/02/2025 08:06

Oh, look, a paper on 'ethical practise'. Talks a lot about 'informed.consent'.

Does it talk about illegally scraping data including personal and sensitive data, and then using it to try and identify anonymous users talking about their personal histories of adoption, dv, and abuse? Or using the testimony of rape victims without seeking their explicit consent?

Gold star for irony.

https://research.aston.ac.uk/en/publications/ethical-practice-in-participant-centred-linguistic-research

ArabellaScott · 02/02/2025 07:56

Thanks for the posts re searching terms on that paper.

They're still using MN? Still publishing work referring to the site, using women's words, about personal and intimate subjects like adoption, and lumping it in with criminal and shady websites.

Aston's reputation should be in fucking tatters.

They might be able to weasel round the legalities but the ethics of it fucking stink. Shame on them.

SinnerBoy · 02/02/2025 02:47

I don't see why MN have agreed to Aston using any data at all in any case. Why do.you not simply deny them the use altogether? They've already shown that they are unethical and abusive, with preconceived conclusions on the subject.

Boiledbeetle · 02/02/2025 01:04

I have more faith in the Grimbut gerbils writing a PhD in ethical T-shirt production than in Aston University being ethical in any way shape or form! This whole debacle has shown Aston University up as a bunch of amoral shysters.

DrBlackbird · 01/02/2025 23:54

Eden Palmer won’t be using it beyond their PhD and related publications or presentations and have also committed to ensuring no third parties break the terms of our agreement.

Completely agree with@YellowAsteroid that this gives Eden an open hand for as long as they like. This ‘won’t be using it beyond’ agreement is utterly insulting. The equivalent of patting the collective heads of FWR and saying ’there, there, don’t worry your little terf heads about serious linguistic concerns’. One can’t help but arrive at an impression that these are deeply unpleasant and arrogant people IMO.

An academic’s whole life is centred around publications and conference presentations. Eden will spend the next ten years of Eden’s life speaking with authority on the transphobes of a well known British parenting forum (wink wink). Garnering accolades and approbation as Eden misrepresents the views and concerns of FWR women ad nauseaum. Reinforcing a convenient narrative that MN is full of horrible women seeking to deny the existence of TW.

But it doesn’t sound as though Aston will budge despite the apparently shocking and cursory wave at ‘ethics’. Other universities would seem to be much much more robust at scrutinising ethic applications.

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 01/02/2025 23:24

Aston University Linguistics Department is staffed by Wankers and trains new, additional Wankers in both undergrad and postgraduate programs.

They are free to quote this post in one of their future papers, authored by Wankers.

Talulahalula · 01/02/2025 23:19

The paper I have linked to includes an analysis of individual users on a thread and the language they use (so personal experience, claims of authority etc). As far as I can work out, it is not possible to identify the users from what has been given in the paper, but I am guessing none of those users would be aware their discussion on the adoption forum has been dissected in this way.

Talulahalula · 01/02/2025 23:07

Hi,
I tried the search cold and it brings up a post from March 2018 from MN with the nationalities of the adopting couple same as you have.
The author’s correspondence email is Aston, so of course it is MN. It’s no doubt from the main dataset and probably submitted before the dataset was deleted.
i cannot find the longer marked up quote either, but the paper references another paper by Newsome-Chandler and Tim Grant (2023) which describes the parenting forum as containing a ‘Talk’ section, a collection of paid moderators identifiable by their usernames; that content is freely accessible but an email is required to register to post, it has ‘lurkers’ … sounds very familiar.

https://ojs.letras.up.pt/index.php/LLLD/article/view/12841
see page 4-5
(the link in the Lucia Busso paper upthread is wrong in the citation for this paper, it takes you to vol 9 of Language and Law but the paper by Newsome Chandler and Grant using MN is in vol 10, no 1).

AstonToTheNaughtyStep · 01/02/2025 22:45

Just searched "We adopted a mixed race (white and Asian) baby in" "Feel free to PM me if you’d like more info."

On Google the Mumsnet thread is the first result.

Interestingly it didn't come up on DuckDuckGo, only the journal article does.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 01/02/2025 22:42

Searching on terms from this bit didn't give me matching MN posts:

'2) They may have overestimated the child and their resilience. <personalexperience> (…)I was eager to have family meet my baby but struggled sometimes to assert myself (…)! I still remember crying in my kitchen after a well-intended cousin kept getting in her space (…). It took months to feel like I could just say no. </segment> <communityexpertise> It’s similar to the threads you see on the board where new mothers struggle to tell no to relatives wanting hugs and kisses etc. </segment>'

I searched via MN & google, using various phrases & combinations of individual words.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 01/02/2025 22:24

@ArabellaScott Searching on "mumsnet We adopted a mixed race (white and Asian) baby in <country>. Feel free to PM me if you’d like more info." returned a MN post from 2018; clicking on that got me to the thread it's in & it's the second of five replies. Those seach words (apart from mumsnet) are quoted in the article you linked to.

Actual post: 'I’m Anglo-Pakistani and my OH is white British. We adopted a mixed race (white and Asian) baby in the UK. Feel free to PM me if you’d like more info.'

I've just tried it again without 'mumsnet' in the search terms & it returns the same post near the top of the list. Perhaps someone else could try it in case my first go (with 'mumsnet') influenced the subsequent search in any way.

Is MNHQ aware of this?

ArabellaScott · 01/02/2025 20:51

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41701-024-00169-y#Sec4

'As data, we use the sample of anonymous online interaction used in Newsome-Chandler and Grant (2024). Specifically, the corpus used is a sample from 3 multi-million words corpora of online fora of different genresFootnote 1. The first forum is a well-established clear web parenting discussion forum (henceforth: PD)Footnote 2. The platform is perfectly legal and a well known community used to discuss issues and advice regarding but not limited to parenthood. The second forum focuses on white nationalist and racist ideologies (henceforth: WN). The site attracts users who are interested in topics such as white supremacy, conspiracy theories, mysogyny and homophobia. Although the website is on the open web, it is centred around ideologies and themes generally rejected by society and public opinion, and includes discussions of criminal activities. The third and last forum is a child sexual abuse forum from the dark web (henceforth: DW). Users on this forum discuss highly illegal topics related to paedophilia, and are hence very careful of their online anonymity.'

Is that 'parenting discussion forum' Mumsnet?

That paper was published in 2024, btw.

Power and Personal Experience in Online Anonymous Communities: A Corpus-Driven Exploration - Corpus Pragmatics

The paper presents an innovative corpus study on Personal Experience as a pragmatic-discursive resource to express power in anonymous online interactions. Specifically, we explore a corpus-driven methodology to extract lexico grammatical features typic...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41701-024-00169-y#Sec4

TheAutopsyOfMNCorpus · 01/02/2025 20:22

YellowAsteroid · 01/02/2025 19:23

that Eden Palmer won’t be using it beyond their PhD and related publications or presentations

Academic here: that is no safeguard at all, frankly. This gives Palmer a pretty open hand for as long as she likes.

At my institution, this PhD would be dead in the ground without proper ethical application and approval.

The terms and conditions Mumsnet would have to have been observed and followed.

The data would have to be destroyed after a set period.

ANY participants would need to be informed that their data are being used and have the right to with draw consent.

And that consent must be informed consent.

I can’t see how any of these basic ethical considerations has been satisfied even after legal intervention.

If ever anything has fed my academic snobbery about ex-polys pretending to do research, it’s this ….

Thank you for posting this, even though it reignites my previous concerns.

YellowAsteroid · 01/02/2025 19:23

that Eden Palmer won’t be using it beyond their PhD and related publications or presentations

Academic here: that is no safeguard at all, frankly. This gives Palmer a pretty open hand for as long as she likes.

At my institution, this PhD would be dead in the ground without proper ethical application and approval.

The terms and conditions Mumsnet would have to have been observed and followed.

The data would have to be destroyed after a set period.

ANY participants would need to be informed that their data are being used and have the right to with draw consent.

And that consent must be informed consent.

I can’t see how any of these basic ethical considerations has been satisfied even after legal intervention.

If ever anything has fed my academic snobbery about ex-polys pretending to do research, it’s this ….

Astontacious · 30/01/2025 18:11

@JustineMumsnet if I cut and paste a sentence from your post above, then put it into advanced search, you come up immediately (actually below @DrBlackbird who quotes you). Unless Eden Palmer uses no quotes then it will be possible to trace a user. We now have a user that a British university (presuming they have endorsed the research and definitions) says is guilty of a hate crime. If any person in the future then goes onto mumsnet and advance searches the post and then tells the police it has upset them and the police contact you, do you have to give them the actual name of the poster?

I haven’t the foggiest what constitutes a hate crime in this context. If you tell the truth that can’t be a crime surely? It would be really nice if you could get their definition of what we can and cannot say so we know the gagging conditions.

TokyoBouncyBall · 30/01/2025 12:14

Thanks for the update Justine.

While I think that you have got a long way and Aston are being surprisingly unyielding considering how badly they messed up it would be good to know how they are ensuring that data is anonymised.

After all, if you are writing about language, you have to provide evidence. And if she includes any quotes, then it's going to be pretty easy to Google that back to specific posts. And then, potentially, harass people.

So I'd like to be reassured that this is not going to be possible.

OP posts:
BIWI · 30/01/2025 10:27

Thank you @JustineMumsnet

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 30/01/2025 09:38

Thanks for the update Justine.

I'm wondering if we can individually or collectively sue Aston for defamation. I'm not 'trans-critical'. I want to protect particularly children from the harmful abusive ideology that says they need surgery and drugs to 'be who they are' and that anyone querying that is somehow 'hateful'. That's pro-child safeguarding. That's where I'm coming from, and it's in line with Cass.

I suppose the line would be it's an 'anonymous' forum but some people on here AREN'T anonymous so in that case 'trans-critical' is defamatory, surely?

Talulahalula · 30/01/2025 07:40

And also a thank you from me.
Apart from anything else, MN is a valuable lifeline for women who are quite vulnerable in many ways, whether as new mums, newly single mums, in unequal or abusive relationships or societally being treated unequally in their work, or public spaces. It shows a disregard for these women, as well as the site, to use what is often personal material or material coming from deeply held beliefs or experiences, without any form of consultation or permission.

@JustineMumsnet i think the question I would ask about the subsequent publications and presentations from the PhD is whether these are going to be solo-authored, and indeed insist on this, if that element is accepted by you. I think this part is here by Aston to protect the student’s interests which they have a duty to do, but i would not want to see the student’s supervisors or anyone else in that place benefit in output and therefore promotion terms from this debacle by using posts made on here in good faith and under a set of terms and conditions which have been disregarded by Aston (some of them have already done this from the main dataset of course).

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 30/01/2025 00:21

Thanks Justine, don’t let the woman-hating arseholes get away with it!

DrBlackbird · 29/01/2025 18:23

Thank you @JustineMumsnet for continuing to try. Legal fees add up quickly! It’s terrible that Aston has forced MN into having do so.

Where we’ve got to is that they’ve given assurances that Mumsnet data won’t be back-traceable to individual users

Researchers always claim this. I’m doubtful but not much can be done.

Eden Palmer won’t be using it beyond their PhD and related publications or presentations and have also committed to ensuring no third parties break the terms of our agreement.

So Eden continues to misrepresent FWR views as ‘anti-trans’ when it’s always been pro-women and quite supportive of those with gender dysphoria esp children seeking to protect them from permanent sterilisation.

We can only imagine what those journal publications will say and how they will continue to perpetuate this GC people are awful terfs.

Moreover, they’ve agreed to a new title for the PhD: "A corpus-assisted critical discourse analysis of trans-critical language in a parenting forum"

See point above! I’d be absolutely interested in Eden’s example of trans-critical language. The frustration is that Eden doesn’t have the courage of Eden’s convinctions. Otherwise, Eden would be more than happy to share their presentation slides from last years conference.

But still a big thank you for continuing to find out where this has gone to!

AstonScrapeNameChangeAgain · 29/01/2025 16:06

I was just wondering about this - thank you for posting the update!

Even if the title is changed, simply googling "Eden Palmer" brings up a MN threads about vipers, gerbils etc with the original title. Whilst this will probably make some of us smile quietly, it does undermine the effort to remove references to MN from the project. I am not suggesting anything should be done about this BTW, or that anyone who wants to make a thread about it shouldn't - and obviously once something is out on the web then it's out on the web etc etc. But I did wonder if it might be possible to eg "un-index" (is that a thing?) the threads so they don't show in google searches if the objective is to try and put some distance between MN and the project and any outputs from it?

AstonToTheNaughtyStep · 29/01/2025 15:55

Thank you Justine. I wholeheartedly agree with you re the use of the word "parenting".