Page 12 | Disability hate on MN

IClaudine · 2024-05-02T12:31:24+00:00

Hi MNHQ Since Sunak’s announcement on disability benefits, there has been a big increase on MN in hostility towards people who receive then. The abuse, hate and outright lies (my neighbour’s son’s cousin’s wife climbs Mount Everest but gets PIP etc) being spewed on MN towards disabled people, a group with protected characteristics, has been dreadful and very distressing for disabled people and their loved ones to read, Please can you do something? Here is a small selection of the threads where the disability benefit bashers have paid a visit and had a field day. There may be more, but I can’t face searching for them! [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5064828-to-be-terrified-about-pip?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5064828-to-be-terrified-about-pip?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share]] [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5065470-people-who-work-have-anxiety-too?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5065470-people-who-work-have-anxiety-too?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share]] [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5066670-aibu-to-hope-that-able-bodied-people-will-support-disabled-people-against-the-tory-attack-on-pip?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5066670-aibu-to-hope-that-able-bodied-people-will-support-disabled-people-against-the-tory-attack-on-pip?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share]] [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/money-matters/5064856-pip-vouchers-to-replace-money?reply=134966246&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/money-matters/5064856-pip-vouchers-to-replace-money?reply=134966246&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share]] [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/money-matters/5066331-do-you-feel-bad-for-receiving-a-high-amount-of-uc?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/money-matters/5066331-do-you-feel-bad-for-receiving-a-high-amount-of-uc?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share]]

Piggywaspushed · 03/07/2025 12:46

Having to stay away from threads (I have hidden whole boards) might be better for one's mental health but it's one sure hellfire way of creating an echo chamber and leaving views unchallenged. Rather negates the point of debate MNHQ was trying to make.

Bumpitybumper · 03/07/2025 12:42

@PhilippaGeorgiou
Sorry, but I am gobsmacked that MNHQ considers it appropriate to post several patronising posts about what they think ableism is, or what they think are offensive comments about disabled people. Some people have engaged with reasoned arguments, yes, and whilst we may not always agree with them, that is legitimate - we don't always even agree with each other. But "my uncles third cousin / the random person living three streets away that I have never spoken to falsely claims PIP" is hate speech. Nobody, but nobody, lives in the skin of the person they are talking about. Comments about "marking our cars with a sign" are reminiscent of Nazi Germany and there is literally no other reasonable way to interpret such a comment. It is astonishing that MNHQ delete perfectly acceptable comments because someone doesn't like them yet cannot delete obviously offensive posts that dozens of people are reporting

This post highlights perfectly how unreasonable some posters are being. MNHQ have taken an objective view of what is ableist. You absolutely don't have to be disabled to apply an objective test in the same way that you don't have to be a woman to judge if a post is misogynistic. I assume by underlining the word 'they' you are suggesting that they are intrinsically incapable of applying an objective test because they aren't disabled. This is nonsensical. The idea also that comments should be removed just because a proportion of the forum's population could find them offensive would render a forum like Mumsnet completely unworkable. I read posts everyday that offend me on important issues like abortion, women's rights etc, it absolutely doesn't give me the right to shut down debates and discussion because I find them offensive or a sensitive topic.

People post anecdotes. Again, that's how a forum like MN works. You may post about your experience as a disabled person to educate people, others may post about their experience of the benefits system and the people they know that use it. Very few people are stupid enough to post on a public forum like MN and openly admit they abuse the system. It would be crazy to do this! We can't just assume though that it isn't happening and lots of people will know enough about family members and friends to know it's happening. They are as entitled to post about this as you are entitled to post about your life experiences. The weighting you put on their anecdotes and how accurate you perceive them to be is completely subjective. The internet is the wild west and we have no idea if anyone is who they say they are or if they're telling the truth about anything. It would be foolish to take down posts about people that allege to know that their acquaintance is fiddling the system on the basis that this may be inaccurate when every single post on this forum may well be inaccurate.

Suggesting that the only reason that people could want to label Motability cars is because it is 'reminiscent of 'Nazi Germany' is ridiculously offensive in itself to the victims of this regime and complete hyperbole.

You need to keep some perspective. Criticism is not automatically hate speech. Conflating the two is hugely dangerous and just works to shut down debate and discussion. We desperately need to keep debate and discussion going as when this ends it only leaves space for extremism to grow. If it's a sensitive topic then stay away from threads that you know will upset you and trust MN to moderate appropriately.

Piggywaspushed · 03/07/2025 12:37

The 'airing them so they can be shut down' defence is also used for racism, homophobia , transphobia , all easily found on MN.

It sucks.

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 12:35

A post suggesting disabled people's cars should have a symbol on them is not "marginal" it is hate speech.

If I suggested the cars of any other minority group should be marked out in some way I would be rightly deleted and hopefully banned.

ValleyClouds · 03/07/2025 12:05

There’s one at the moment bashing parents for a) taking disabled kids to Disney World b) having the audacity to want a queue pass. It is simply there to bash and no other reason, yet I am sure it will be allowed to stand!

PhilippaGeorgiou · 03/07/2025 12:00

Sorry, but I am gobsmacked that MNHQ considers it appropriate to post several patronising posts about what they think ableism is, or what they think are offensive comments about disabled people. Some people have engaged with reasoned arguments, yes, and whilst we may not always agree with them, that is legitimate - we don't always even agree with each other. But "my uncles third cousin / the random person living three streets away that I have never spoken to falsely claims PIP" is hate speech. Nobody, but nobody, lives in the skin of the person they are talking about. Comments about "marking our cars with a sign" are reminiscent of Nazi Germany and there is literally no other reasonable way to interpret such a comment. It is astonishing that MNHQ delete perfectly acceptable comments because someone doesn't like them yet cannot delete obviously offensive posts that dozens of people are reporting.

In all honesty, at least be upfront about it - it is about the clicks. It is about money. Calm and rational debates don't attract people, and no people isn't of interest to advertisers. MumsNet is notorious across the internet for having some of the most viscious threads going, not for being a nice and supportive place for people to have reasoned debate.

It would have been better to stay silent than to try to justify the unacceptable.

ValleyClouds · 03/07/2025 11:33

BeckyAMumsnet · 03/07/2025 10:00

Ho @PandoraSocks We’ve had reports about this post. While the suggestions may be punitive and perhaps overly simplistic to those with direct experience, and we understand why many posters find them offensive, but we didn't feel it broke our rules (though it was marginal). We allow critical and even uncomfortable views on the benefits system, because in our experience, airing and challenging them openly is better than shutting them down. That doesn’t mean we endorse them. There are many people who have little experience of benefits and perhaps zero experience of the increasing challenges faced by disabled people. We strongly believe that open discussions could go some way to address that. We know that for disabled posters in particular, this political moment feels uncertain and exhausting, and posts like this can add to that, so we understand the strength of feeling and we are trying hard to strike an admittedly difficult balance.

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Your post defending Mumsnets stance just highlights the problem “people with zero experience “ holding forth about matters about which they are ignorant unchecked, threads such as So and So’s brothers wife’s cousin gets £1000 a month PIP when the maximum amount any one person can receive is significantly below that. You allow misinformation and ignorance free rein and you put the emphasis on your most vulnerable members to challenge it themselves and tolerate it.

Posts about SEND children are particularly bad because there is quite often a deliberate faux sympathy or disingenuousness to them to allow bashing to commence.

As a general rule I think there should be limits to the amount the same poster should be allowed to post threads in the same topic. As well as disability politics there are other issues and I think this would kill a lot of problem posters with one stone

MNHQ

BeckyAMumsnet · 03/07/2025 11:22

TigerRag · 03/07/2025 10:59

Will you address the fact that there are people coming onto boards for disabled people and disrupting the discussion?

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Hello @TigerRag we can't see that you've reported that lately - please do so and we'll take a look. It sounds like we'd consider such behaviour inflammatory at the very least so we're keen to investigate further.

TigerRag · 03/07/2025 10:59

BeckyAMumsnet · 03/07/2025 10:00

Ho @PandoraSocks We’ve had reports about this post. While the suggestions may be punitive and perhaps overly simplistic to those with direct experience, and we understand why many posters find them offensive, but we didn't feel it broke our rules (though it was marginal). We allow critical and even uncomfortable views on the benefits system, because in our experience, airing and challenging them openly is better than shutting them down. That doesn’t mean we endorse them. There are many people who have little experience of benefits and perhaps zero experience of the increasing challenges faced by disabled people. We strongly believe that open discussions could go some way to address that. We know that for disabled posters in particular, this political moment feels uncertain and exhausting, and posts like this can add to that, so we understand the strength of feeling and we are trying hard to strike an admittedly difficult balance.

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Will you address the fact that there are people coming onto boards for disabled people and disrupting the discussion?

Deludamol · 03/07/2025 10:42

BeckyAMumsnet · 03/07/2025 10:00

Ho @PandoraSocks We’ve had reports about this post. While the suggestions may be punitive and perhaps overly simplistic to those with direct experience, and we understand why many posters find them offensive, but we didn't feel it broke our rules (though it was marginal). We allow critical and even uncomfortable views on the benefits system, because in our experience, airing and challenging them openly is better than shutting them down. That doesn’t mean we endorse them. There are many people who have little experience of benefits and perhaps zero experience of the increasing challenges faced by disabled people. We strongly believe that open discussions could go some way to address that. We know that for disabled posters in particular, this political moment feels uncertain and exhausting, and posts like this can add to that, so we understand the strength of feeling and we are trying hard to strike an admittedly difficult balance.

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Just logged back in because I had an update email on this post.

Sorry but that's bollocks. Reading shit like that on a daily basis made me feel suicidal. If you genuinely believe that's how your previously long standing posters should be made to feel because it doesn't 'break your guidelines', then your guidelines need to be addressed.

Again, I won't be back until MN is no longer a risk to my mental health. I'm already in daily excruciating pain. Being constantly bullied over it or made to feel like I have no value as a human being reading other PP's bullying and offensive comments is not a standard I will accept. It's clearly got way out of hand recently. Perhaps you should listen to how many disabled people are suffering deeply as a result of your guidelines before coming on here and telling us it's fine. It is not fucking fine.

I've read my fair share of shit on here over the years and I am well versed in robust debate. But outright cruelty being allowed to stand is totally unacceptable. It wouldn't surprise me if these posts led to an actual death because we can't cope with the cruelty levied against us again and again and again.

Signing back out again now - and I cancelled my subscription months ago because I'm not paying for you to allow disabled people to be continually harassed.

Do you not think our lives are hard enough already?

MNHQ

BeckyAMumsnet · 03/07/2025 10:00

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 09:45

Hi @BeckyAMumsnet

Thanks for coming on to the thread.

I think that saying disabled people's Motability cars should be marked so that people know they are "free" cars 🙄 is crossing the line, yet MNHQ let it stand.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5362857-taxes-to-rise-to-fund-pip?reply=145298232&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

In contrast, minor infarctions of the rules, like mentioning the content of a post on another thread are rapidly zapped.

Can you see why we have little faith in the moderation when it comes to ableism? The last few days have been awful.

I am trying to phrase my final comment carefully as I don't want to be rude or be banned...many of the people here are disabled or have disabled family members. We know what is and isn't ableism.

Edited

Ho @PandoraSocks We’ve had reports about this post. While the suggestions may be punitive and perhaps overly simplistic to those with direct experience, and we understand why many posters find them offensive, but we didn't feel it broke our rules (though it was marginal). We allow critical and even uncomfortable views on the benefits system, because in our experience, airing and challenging them openly is better than shutting them down. That doesn’t mean we endorse them. There are many people who have little experience of benefits and perhaps zero experience of the increasing challenges faced by disabled people. We strongly believe that open discussions could go some way to address that. We know that for disabled posters in particular, this political moment feels uncertain and exhausting, and posts like this can add to that, so we understand the strength of feeling and we are trying hard to strike an admittedly difficult balance.

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 09:53

Sorry, that link doesn't seem to work. Try again:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5362857-taxes-to-rise-to-fund-pip?reply=145298232&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 09:45

Hi @BeckyAMumsnet

Thanks for coming on to the thread.

I think that saying disabled people's Motability cars should be marked so that people know they are "free" cars 🙄 is crossing the line, yet MNHQ let it stand.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5362857-taxes-to-rise-to-fund-pip?reply=145298232&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

In contrast, minor infarctions of the rules, like mentioning the content of a post on another thread are rapidly zapped.

Can you see why we have little faith in the moderation when it comes to ableism? The last few days have been awful.

I am trying to phrase my final comment carefully as I don't want to be rude or be banned...many of the people here are disabled or have disabled family members. We know what is and isn't ableism.

MNHQ

BeckyAMumsnet · 03/07/2025 09:27

Hi all,

Thanks for your posts.

We’ve seen a number of reports and concerns about threads discussing the benefits system, particularly disability benefits, and whether these discussions should be allowed on Mumsnet and so we think it’s important to address this directly.

Critical conversations about how the benefits system functions, whether it’s effective, fair, or open to misuse, are permitted here. These are complex, timely issues, especially in light of ongoing political and economic change. Questioning whether the system is working as intended isn’t, in itself, disablist, it’s part of a broader national conversation that many people, including those directly affected by the system, care deeply about.

What we do not allow is disablism - and that would include posts that attack or stereotype disabled people, suggest claimants are lying en masse, or mock or belittle individuals on the basis of health conditions or support needs. Those posts will be removed, and repeat offenders may find their accounts closed.
We also want to address the term “benefits bashing,” which comes up frequently in reports. We understand that some posts feel harsh or even distressing, especially to those with experience of relying on benefits. But unless a post clearly breaks our Talk guidelines (for example, by being abusive, hateful, or targeted at individuals), it won’t be removed simply for being critical or expressing an unpopular opinion. Posts critiquing the system are fine but you cannot use someone’s benefit status as a way to discredit them in a thread.

We aim to make Mumsnet a place for difficult, real-world discussions, without allowing the tone to tip into hostility or dehumanisation. If you’re unsure whether something crosses that line, please report it and we’ll review.

Thanks
MNHQ

Italianita · 02/07/2025 21:08

Please everyone, you don't need to give reasons....

CrocusSnowdrop · 02/07/2025 21:04

One of my things is genetic and it didn't manifest itself until my 20s! I guess my parents should've factored that in before they had me 😂

thisiswheretheseagullfliesaway · 02/07/2025 12:54

@TigerRag , right, it's madness isn't it. My DS has partial gene deletion.

TigerRag · 02/07/2025 11:56

Samcro · 02/07/2025 11:52

WTF so we need a crystal ball now. mine and all the ones I know are severely disabled because of issue with the birth.

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I have friends whose children are disabled because of a random gene mutation. Absolutely nothing they could do to stop their children being disabled. Neither child has obvious issues until they were 6 months old

Samcro · 02/07/2025 11:52

thisiswheretheseagullfliesaway · 02/07/2025 10:49

I'm thought that too but there's been more than one person commenting we should have taken into account our children could have complex health issues from birth and have factored that financially before conception 😣

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WTF so we need a crystal ball now. mine and all the ones I know are severely disabled because of issue with the birth.

Ureelp · 02/07/2025 11:50

The thing that annoys me the most is if you report sometimes insanely twatty posts that are not just wrong but hurtful, mean about disabled people as a group, and you report that, you will probably get a thing back of oh we’re leaving it up, people are being robust in replies, educating people is good blah blah blah.

if someone calls that person out on being a twat with the same type of language used towards disabled people as a group they will be deleted. If it’s not right to speak that way to an individual why is it fine to a group?

some of these posters saying these offensive things have been doing it for years, so clearly the we shall let them say these awful things and we can all educate them and sing kumbaya together is not working mnhq.

why are you so reluctant to be robust in your moderation when it comes to this? This has been a topic that keeps coming up for years at this point.

Dollenganger333 · 02/07/2025 10:57

It’s sheer ignorance. If these people had to live in a disabled person’s shoes for one day, they’d soon see how stupid they are to be jealous about funding people get to simply level a playing field.

I’ve just been on holiday with some people who said they found it very eye opening how much stuff I have to do for my 16 year old dd. They have known me for years but never saw the reality until then.

thisiswheretheseagullfliesaway · 02/07/2025 10:49

Samcro · 01/07/2025 09:41

the amount of these goady threads is awful. I know things are bad when I think that my dc will be ok because they are so disabled. the GF can't surely be talking about them/[.

I'm thought that too but there's been more than one person commenting we should have taken into account our children could have complex health issues from birth and have factored that financially before conception 😣

Samcro · 01/07/2025 09:41

the amount of these goady threads is awful. I know things are bad when I think that my dc will be ok because they are so disabled. the GF can't surely be talking about them/[.

PandoraSocks · 30/06/2025 22:41

Deludamol · 30/06/2025 17:36

I left MN a few months back, after posting here regularly for about 15 years. I've only signed back in today to say that I won't be coming back until I no longer have to read endless comments calling me a lazy good for nothing scrounger because I happened to become disabled.

It's hellish enough losing your health, but I couldn't hack the hate on here anymore. I deserve to live as much as anyone else.

It is awful and I wish MNHQ would do something. You are worth a million of the scummy benefit bashers ❤️

Deludamol · 30/06/2025 17:36

I left MN a few months back, after posting here regularly for about 15 years. I've only signed back in today to say that I won't be coming back until I no longer have to read endless comments calling me a lazy good for nothing scrounger because I happened to become disabled.

It's hellish enough losing your health, but I couldn't hack the hate on here anymore. I deserve to live as much as anyone else.