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Pregnant people?! It's 'women'

405 replies

BIWI · 19/09/2023 14:57

Two links to surveys today, from Kings College London and Cardiff University. Both surveys wanting to speak to 'pregnant people'.

It's women who get pregnant and give birth. Male members of our society are unable to conceive, grow and birth babies.

Please, please, please - why are you accepting these requests? Do you not read them first? (Especially seeing as you allow them to post their links for free).

I'm appalled that Mumsnet is now complicit in erasing the word 'woman'.

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AnSolas · 20/09/2023 20:20

Graciebobcat · 20/09/2023 14:53

To gather the data they have to either make a special section for this small group of men or design the data collection process around pretending that its not just women who growing new humans.

I thought you, or perhaps other posters, had spent three pages of this thread arguing that trans men were women.

I'm just trying to discuss how all women can be included whether or not they have decided to be a man, which I think is an important issue, as a feminist myself.

If a woman decided to have a baby (or not) why is her voice more important if she claims to be a man?

Why should women's services be renamed and women themselves be renamed because that woman decided that being recognised as a man elevates her status above other women.

I'm not saying that anyone should have elevated status, but that they should not be or feel excluded. Even if it's a tiny minority of one or two people out of 50,000.

You understand that these special women have to be classed as men or at least not-women?

The researchers decided that women was not an inclusive word as it implied (flat out correctly classes your 1 or 2 women as women). That the research has to be organised around the of sample not being a sample of pregnant women.

That the data sets are
a) pregnant women,
b) special pregnant not-women,
c) partners female or male of pregnant women,
d) partners female or male of special pregnant non-women

If it was just about "women" the researchers would put a footnote to explain that collecting data from the special pregnant not-women is not relevant because of how tiny that data set is.

AnSolas · 20/09/2023 19:48

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 14:45

Gonna come back to De Beauvoir here "women are not born but made".

People give birth to people. Some of those people will have the capacity to birth other people, some will not; some of those who do not have that capacity can and will be identified at the time of birth.

The ones who know from their earliest years that they do not have this capacity and cannot aquire it organise society in their interests.

The definition of woman that is being pushed - as an socially and sexually mature person who is assumed to have the capacity to conceive birth and gestate and the automatic inclusion of a sexually and socially immature person into that category once their ability is proven reduces female people only to that which breeds, and by implication, that which can be fucked.

That 12 year old got made into a woman, by being raped. A man changed her status from "girl" to "woman" by raping her, because only women can be pregnant.

Female people are people. This is the hill in the TERF war on which I will die.

That 12 year old got made into a woman, by being raped. A man changed her status from "girl" to "woman" by raping her, because only women can be pregnant.

What Utter Tripe

What happens it the "MAN" is a 12 year old?

She changes his status from a "boy" to a "man" by raping him, because only an man can get a woman pregnant?

Your "female people" word game is reducing 50%+ of the people to barren2, breeder or bleeder people and adding to the ideology that men can be barren2, breeder or bleeder people too.

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/09/2023 18:39

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 18:01

Its hardly academic theory - the Radicalesbians and Solanas werent professors or something.

@MillicentTrilbyHiggins feminism as "equality between the sexes" is what men tell us feminism is. That is not feminism, feminism is centring female people.

Take abortion, it is perfectly equal for people of neither sex to be prosecuted for having an abortion, both men and women treated completely equally. Only equality is then a shit show for female people.

On the other hand, the right to bodily autonomy is critical for all people and it is for all people to determine whether or not they want to continue with a pregnancy. That is also equal.

Male people will always argue for the version of equality that suits them best.

Is it? Men don't tell me what feminism is or isn't. Or what equality is.

Your abortion example doesn't even make sense. Men can't have abortions.

AnSolas · 20/09/2023 18:33

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 14:29

No, I'm saying that some people are excluded from the generic category of "people" because they are female - abortion isnt a human rights issue for example, but a women's rights issue.

I see a shit tonne of posters on demos saying "woman = adult human female", yet here we are saying actually "woman = adult human female and children who have need of pregnancy services" because we are defining pregnancy services as something that only women can access, therefore if you are 12 suddenly you become a woman because of what a man has done to you.

Why does she need women's pregnancy rights (ie the pregnancy rights of an adult female)? Why do 12 year olds have to be considered adults to get the healthcare that they need and is appropriate to them in their situation as a female child who is pregnant?

Female people are people.

Male people are people who intrinsically lack the human capacity of conception, gestation and birthing and thus have no experience of significant parts of the human condition.

No, I'm saying that some people are excluded from the generic category of "people" because they are female - abortion isnt a human rights issue for example, but a women's rights issue.

What are you trying to say here^ ?

The law could allow " people to have abortion" rights. But societies which allow abortion recognise that the creation of a new human takes to genetic inputs.

The human which can grow a new human was given a generic term woman, the one which cant is given a generic term man as both humans have to reach a mimimum level of human phyical development to be able to produce the physical biological material needed to create a new human.

The society could have made up two new words eg a "jiejd" could be the human who can grow a new human and a "djeij" could be the one which can not grow a new human.

Therefore as a djeij can not grow a new human they dont get abortion rights

But a jiejd who can grow a new human will get abortion rights

We as a society recognise that abortion removes jiejd and djeij from the bodies of sexual mature jiejd so as a society we recognise that jiejd rights are specific rights that only jiejd need.

But rather than twisting language or making up new words the word used is woman which has a meaning "of the sex class which can grow a new human and having reached the sexual maturity be able to grow a new human".

then to avoid any legal argument will add a definition about the law not being age restricted.

this prevents legal debates as society has the common legal principle that humans who have not attained a specific lifespan do not need to have the same Rights as the humans who have

EasternStandard · 20/09/2023 18:29

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 18:01

Its hardly academic theory - the Radicalesbians and Solanas werent professors or something.

@MillicentTrilbyHiggins feminism as "equality between the sexes" is what men tell us feminism is. That is not feminism, feminism is centring female people.

Take abortion, it is perfectly equal for people of neither sex to be prosecuted for having an abortion, both men and women treated completely equally. Only equality is then a shit show for female people.

On the other hand, the right to bodily autonomy is critical for all people and it is for all people to determine whether or not they want to continue with a pregnancy. That is also equal.

Male people will always argue for the version of equality that suits them best.

‘Male people’ at least you’re consistent

I really hope we don’t have this mangling of language.

Men and women works fine. It does not mean to me what it does to you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 18:02

It's theory. Most women aren't interested and don't feel any need to engage with it, rightly or wrongly.

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 18:01

Its hardly academic theory - the Radicalesbians and Solanas werent professors or something.

@MillicentTrilbyHiggins feminism as "equality between the sexes" is what men tell us feminism is. That is not feminism, feminism is centring female people.

Take abortion, it is perfectly equal for people of neither sex to be prosecuted for having an abortion, both men and women treated completely equally. Only equality is then a shit show for female people.

On the other hand, the right to bodily autonomy is critical for all people and it is for all people to determine whether or not they want to continue with a pregnancy. That is also equal.

Male people will always argue for the version of equality that suits them best.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 17:36

I don't need to be liberated from being a woman. I'm fine being a woman, it's the discrimination, harassment and disrespect from the opposite sex, and the internalised version of it from my own sex that I'm objecting to.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 17:34

This is academic theory that you're quoting. I've read some of it, but nothing of this nature is in fact necessary to be a woman, and most women worldwide haven't read any of it.

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/09/2023 17:33

At the root of women's liberation is liberation from being a woman. Not from being a female person, because being female is a material state, but from being a woman.

That's not what women's lib is, is it? I thought it was a movement set up to gain equality between the sexes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 17:32

@Cailleachian

You have a huge blind spot. Being a woman doesn't require any ideological baggage by default. It just requires being born female and surviving to adulthood. Gender" is where that ideological and stereotypical view comes in.

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 17:27

But I am suggesting an alternative - female people.

At the root of women's liberation is liberation from being a woman. Not from being a female person, because being female is a material state, but from being a woman.

Take "woman identified woman" (1970).

"As the source of self-hate and lack of real self are rooted in our male given identity, we must create a new sense of self. As long as we cling to the idea of "being a woman" we will sense some conflict with that incipient self, that sense of I, that sense of a whole person"

http://lzigelyte.digitalscholar.rochester.edu/queertheory/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Woman-Identified-Woman.pdf

Or the SCUM Manifesto (1971)

"To be sure he's a Man', the male must see to it that the female be clearly a Woman', the opposite of a `Man', that is, the female must act like a faggot. And Daddy's Girl, all of whose female instincts were wrenched out of her when little, easily and obligingly adapts herself to the role."

https://www.2ra.co/uploads/2/6/8/6/26862532/scum_manifesto.pdf

GoodOldEmmaNess · 20/09/2023 17:03

Honestly I don't know why I keep responding to Cailleachian's words. It reminds me of when my son asked me 'Why can't you tackle in tennis?' Just soo sooo wide of the mark that it is hard to find the footholds that will get us back to talking sense.

Eg 'This is the whole mantra, female people cannot be people because they are women.' What? Whose mantra? The term women (in conjunction with the term girls) means the same as 'female people'. So this alleged mantra is equivalent to saying that 'female people cannot be people because they are female people'. An absolute word salad.

GoodOldEmmaNess · 20/09/2023 16:43

The category of "woman" is something that men have defined - not as some kind of neutral descriptor of "female people" like many here seem to believe, but as an ideological categorisation of what they want female people to be.

That is simply and totally false. Otherwise how could entire women's movements under the banner woman's rights women's liberation , active over many decades, contain the manifestos that they do contain. Namely, that women - the sex category that has historically been oppressed by men and subjected to confining gender stereotypes, etc - must achieve social equality, an end to male violence, and the right to pursue their lives regardless of confining gender stereotypes.

You absolutely cannot deny that, linguistically, the term woman has been used by women to name a material sex category and to assert their own autonomous material reality and their rights.

And if you really, truly do believe that the term woman does not simply designate the material sex category, then why are you not campaigning for the introduction of a term that does designate this category, since clearly we cannot speak clearly of this category - or our rights - without naming it?

It is not the traditional use of the term woman that is "an ideological categorisation of what [men] want female people to be". It is the RE-definition of the term 'woman' by the so-called trans rights movement (essentially nothing more than a form of men's rights activism) that converts the term into an ideological one when it divorces 'woman' from its traditional meaning (adult human female) and recreates womanhood as an idea in men's heads, ie as a projection of men's own desires about the women they want to 'be' or screw or screw over.

That re-definition is not an organic evolution of language; it is a deliberate imposition, to deprive us of a term that defines the sex category to which we belong, so that we no longer have the conceptual framework to articulate the demands that womens rights movements have historically agitated for and to some extent achieved.

And reference to de Beauvoir's "women are not born but made" is not the gotcha you think it is. It is a perfectly unexeptional rhetorical statement, conveying the fact that the manner in which women experience themselves in a sexist society is created not simply from their biological starting point but from the social accretions to which that starting point is vulnerable. Time and again people pretend that they don't understand the idea of rhetorical forms of expression, just in order to shoehorn in a quote that - very superficially - gives them a momentary veneer of having said something that they can substantiate philosophically

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 16:07

There was a very recent survey that showed that a lot of people do indeed think that transwoman is the word for a female human who identifies as a male.

Roughly a third of those polled.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 16:05

GoodOldEmmaNess · 20/09/2023 12:57

Because women is a man-made ideological concept, not a material difference of biology.
No it isn't. Words don't just mean whatever you want them to mean, no matter how hard you try to make them do that. You'd be closer to the mark if you said that 'lady' is a man-made ideological concept, since it evokes notions of class, behaviour, etiquette, femininity, which are all socially constructed realities. But woman, no. It refers to the 'material difference of biology' of which you speak.

Are you getting confused between 'women' (ie the word) and women (ie adult human females)? Clearly all words are human constructs since we create language and use essentially arbitrary sounds to designate parts of reality. But that doesn't, without extensive further argument, entail that the parts of reality so-designated are themselves constructs, otherwise our self-designation as humans or as mammals or as extended objects in space would all be similarly 'ideological'.

That is an arguable view (though you'd need to present the arguments!), but what it doesn't do is indicate why we need to treat the word 'woman' as more of an ideological construct than, say, human or table or shoe.

Edited

This.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/09/2023 16:02

A women is an adult human female. That’s it! No more, no less

just like a mare is a adult female horse or a hen is an adult female chicken

that’s literally all a woman is

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 15:53

Same as legally, people with XY chromosomes and a GRC are women.

Not for all purposes, no. It's not that simple. There are exceptions.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 15:46

Woman is an ideological construct that is imposed on female people from birth as something inevitable that they will become.

No, I don't see that being a woman needs this kind of ideological baggage. A woman is a female human who has reached adulthood. No stereotypes needed. You do you.

EasternStandard · 20/09/2023 15:44

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 15:42

But it all ultimately comes back to "who is a woman"?

And my answer is that I dont really think anyone is, any more than anyone "is" a Leo or "is" a INTJ. Woman is an ideological construct that is imposed on female people from birth as something inevitable that they will become.

Pp put it well

Animals have words to define the male and female of the species as per biology. Just that ; in humans it's man/woman

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 15:42

But it all ultimately comes back to "who is a woman"?

And my answer is that I dont really think anyone is, any more than anyone "is" a Leo or "is" a INTJ. Woman is an ideological construct that is imposed on female people from birth as something inevitable that they will become.

Heyhoherewegoagain · 20/09/2023 15:21

Do you always work so hard to take offence 🙄

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/09/2023 15:17

And yet here you are!

all women are people
not all people are women

PinkRoses1245 · 20/09/2023 15:14

But I'm a person first. and who cares.

loislovesstewie · 20/09/2023 15:13

No! people with XY chromosomes can never be women.