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Original poster

A typical mumsnet debate???

132 replies

tiktok · 27/04/2007 12:10

Anyone recognise the shape of a thread (I am omitting details)

OP: I am doing something with my child that is not what planned to do, but it is something I have ended up doing because of circumstances. Now, I feel like a rubbish mother because it is not what other people say I ought to do. Please, is there anyone with experience who can tell me it's ok to be doing this?

Various posters: Yes, it's fine, I did this and my kids are wonderful and everything in my garden is rosy. Don't listen to people who tell you not to do this thing.

Other various posters: What you do is your own business, and of course you are not rubbish, and many people have been in that situation. But you should know that if you continue doing what you are doing, XYZ might happen. If you are fine about XYZ happening, then of course that's ok. But from your post, it appears as if XYZ is not what you wanted to happen.

Other other various posters: Bish Bash Bosh! The OP doesn't want to know all that! She wants fluffy kittens and lovely stuff! You are all very smug! Bish Bash Bosh! And anyway, XYZ didn't happen to me!

Other various posters again: But the OP is not the only one reading this - she needs to know about XYZ, and so do other people who come on here and lurk, now and in the future.

Other other other various posters: You are being horrible to the OP - she wants fluffy kittens and starlight, with added chocolate! And sugar sprinkles!

OP: some of you are horrible, and I didn't want this horrible argument....it's made me feel worse.

Other various posters again: oh dear....this is the internet and these things happen. Soz.

Other other other various posters : See what you have done with your decision to withhold the fluffyness?? Yah boo nasty smug people !

OP posts:
GColdtimer · 30/04/2007 10:25

I do agree in part with what the "you have to give them the facts camp" are saying but on the other hand I do think it is somehow belittling someone's feelings to talk of care and empathy and fluffiness and kittens. In this particular case the OP had been through and awful time - a stillborn baby and a miscarriage in a year and imo what she needed to hear (after the warnings about mixed feeding were taken on board and acknowledged) was "enjoy your baby and try to stop worrying". I don't think this amounts to fluffiness to be honest. It probably comes down to balance and I think in this case the balance was wrong.

gess · 30/04/2007 09:13

That thread wasn;t about someone being "oversensitive" though was it. I do think there's a "right audience" idea, and that it makes sense to try and live by that online as well as in RL. It is harder online as you don't have someone's situation but there are threads that I don't go on and post the real world view because I know its not appropriate or helpful for the person in that position. I've learned that the hard way. If someone has posted very clear reasons for being vulnerable, then I think a bit of empathy can go a long long way.

Original poster
tiktok · 30/04/2007 08:57

Thanks, Cazee....I think it's in the nature of an open forum that you don't always get what you wanted, you're right, but I feel a bit when people get upset about what they read, especially when no one has actually been nasty, or intending to be nasty. Sensitive and vulnerable people do take things v. personally - it helps if they remember 'it's just the internet' but when you're in the middle of a problem, or not used to forums, you don't think that way.

OP posts:
monkeytrousers · 30/04/2007 08:50

But in some threads we actually learn something too

Cazee · 30/04/2007 08:46

Tiktok, I am always struck by the warmth of your posts, they are full of compassion and understanding. On the very rare occasions you have had to take issue with a poster it has been because they have made incorrect assertions that would be misleading, and you have still responded with grace and humour. You give so much of your time to help others, and you should know how appreciated it is. Mumsnet is not a yes man club. People who post on here will get different viewpoints, and that is to the credit of MN and the intelligent ladies who use it . Adults should be able to hear all views/information. If you are in such a delicate state that you only want to hear fluffyness and kittens then you should not post on an internet forum, IMO.

Original poster
tiktok · 29/04/2007 23:34

You accused me of 'subtle slagging off', Fio....not an attack on my views, or especially personal, I agree, and perhaps just one of the 'haphazard' comments you say you are prone to, so best forgotten now, I think

OP posts:
FioFio · 29/04/2007 19:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

tigermoth · 29/04/2007 12:55

This thread has inspired me to start another one - won't muddy the waters by adding it here as a diversion.

Original poster
tiktok · 29/04/2007 11:41

Maybe I am being a bit slow this morning - is FFF saying I criticise in an ill-considered way because I've been here a while?

Can't think of any occasions when I have done this, as the (very) occasional criticism is always well-considered and only ever in response to unfairness, rudeness, pomposity and deliberate pontificating from a position of ignorance.

If you don't do any of them, you are safe from my thunderous rage

OP posts:
Rosylily · 29/04/2007 08:43

I'm a 'pop them on' person pretty much but my sister was a distraught bf f*ckup...twice and I felt her pain. The thing is my sister put herself through hell but she needed top class advice even if it wouldn't work for her because she was determined to try her best. If a million people told her mixed feeding was fine she wouldn't believe it anyway. So I think most people need all the facts aswell as emotional support.

GColdtimer · 29/04/2007 07:57

Oh, and I agree with you dogsbollox.

GColdtimer · 29/04/2007 07:45

Aitch, you are so right. I never met so many in rl. They were either the "I just pop the baby on and they feed in 10 mins" types, the "gosh, I had loads of problems but we just preserved" types or the "I can't be bothered with all that types". I could have done with finding MN a bit earlier I think to meet the other emotionally distraught bf fuckups!

FiveFingeredFiend · 29/04/2007 00:33

Touchy about f* all eh?

speaks volumes about MN recently.

Esp. those who have been here some time ( tiktok & fio and everone slese included, no bias here) seem to think their voice carries weight, therefore alright to criticise in an ill considered way.

Original poster
tiktok · 29/04/2007 00:28

Fio, you know very well I explained that 'sheltered life' was a joke which was meant to remind you that you hadn't met everyone else in the world.....

Bloody hell, people are touchy about f* all....

OP posts:
gess · 28/04/2007 22:57

PMSL @ fio being either fluffly kittened, or indeed lucky enough to live a life that was sheltered (alas not an option for some of us, including fio). Otherwise agree with the wonderfully named dogsbollox

MARGOsBeenPlayingWithMyNooNoo · 28/04/2007 22:48

Personally, the advantage of posting on a forum for advice is that you get professional advice and personal experiences.

IME, when i've asked for b/f advice, I've returned to the thread a number of times to re-read the different information given.

The professional advice was evenhanded.

Tiktok gives great advice (it's the second time I've said it today). I agree with everything Lulumama says. (well, on this thread anyway)

thedogsbollox · 28/04/2007 20:51

Moondog - usually I would agree with you. In this case I think teh proviso 'there is a time and place' kicks in.

The OP was clearly in a delicate place. The point was made, very nicely and effectively that there was no guarantee that her supply would continue to support mixed feeding. All fine and dandy. What followed was highly regrettable imvho!

I also think that the 'got to have a full on breastfeeding is best campaign on every breastfeeding or indeed mixed or formula feeding thread, lest some poor uneducated sod should come along and read this thread in the archives' is wearing a bit thin. But that is just my own personal view and no doubt others would see things differently.

When a thread goes badly wrong like the one referred to here and someone in a very delicate state is affected by that, I think everyone concerned should examine the role they played in what went wrong, rather than blithely write it off as 'a typical mn debate'. Of course it will be typical as long as everyone involved displays the same behaviours over and over again!

kamikayzed · 28/04/2007 20:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FioFio · 28/04/2007 20:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

FioFio · 28/04/2007 20:08

This reply has been deleted

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moondog · 28/04/2007 20:07

As always Tiktok,your posts are so acccurate,thoughtful and perceptive.

I really think we all need to understand the endless possibilities and limitations of t'Internet.

The most important thing to remember is that if you ask for advice/feedback YOU WILL HEAR STUFF THAT YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO HEAR OR LIKE TO HEAR.

If that is the case,step away from the computer now.

Original poster
tiktok · 28/04/2007 19:34

frazzled, my post X'd with yours.

You made an unfair accusation, and I accept your apology.

In a one-to-one counselling situation, any talk of formula and breastmilk as a comparison would be out of place...I really did not talk 'constantly' of inferior formula, and only used the word after someone else had used it and someone else had countered it!

I really hope you feel better soon...no one knows better than breastfeeding counsellors how sad feeding can make women

OP posts:
Original poster
tiktok · 28/04/2007 19:30

I explain what you need to breastfeed on that 'other' thread - I say "Feeding - however it's done - is more than just a way of getting milk into babies. It impacts on many parts of life, and breastfeeding requires a leap of confidence and a supportive cultural and emotional context that is often not present, and an understanding that's been lost...plus expert help with the physical problems that can arise with it."

All, or some, or even one or two, elements on that list are missing for many women. In addition, there is a very small percentage of women who have physically unsurmountable difficulties, and who would find it too much to supply all their babies' milk needs without supplementing (though many of them can partially breastfeed, but they may choose not to, and that is fine).

You can throw crappy birth experiences into the pot, babies who are very, very prem, or sick, or sleepy....and you get a long list of obstacles.

I hope frazzled will do me the courtesy of reading what I have said, and maybe re-think her accusation, or else back it up with something.

And thanks for the support, Aitch

OP posts:
AitchTwoOh · 28/04/2007 19:29

see you then, frazzled!

frazzledfairy · 28/04/2007 19:25

i think this is why i steer clear of bf/ff threads! am probably far too hypersensitive about it.

i didn't mean midwife, my mistake, i meant bf counsellor (brain is fuggy today and i'm knackered, am pg with no3).

i think the reason you brought back all those awful memories was the constant talking about how ff was so inferior to bm. something that someone who has not managed to bf absolutely does not need to hear.

and i just thought thank god my bf counsellor eventually gave me a huge hug and said 'i think you've done all you can' and accepted that i was finished mentally and physically. because i think if i had continued i would have had some sort of breakdown.

maybe i have confused you with someone else, i don't have the energy to go back over the thread, but i do apologise if i have

i am off to collapse in bed now, and never show my face on a bf thread again (unless it's in 6 months time when i'm desperately trying to feed no3!_

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