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More about the Technical side of the attacks on Mumsnet

720 replies

JustineMumsnet · 19/08/2015 11:17

Hi all,
There are have been, understandably, a lot of questions about the tech side of the attack on Mumsnet, so here - courtesy of the tech team is some more detail. We obviously do have to be a bit careful with the details because we don't want to give away information that could help other hackers. Whilst it's true that "security through obscurity" isn't real security, we have no wish to make it easier for a future attacker.

We've spent a lot of time since the attacks began, proactively defending against them, minimising the impact of it and protecting against future attacks. With a busy site like Mumsnet there is a lot of information to go through. When we uncover a new snippet of information, perhaps a new suspicious user account, we have to go back to the start and reanalyze, so it can be slow going at times. We are working with our technology partners who have a lot of experience of these kind of attacks and we have used lots of resources available to us.

Some aspects of our technology stack have already been extensively tested by external specialists. Some of our software code is quite old - nearly as old as Mumsnet itself - and things have moved on a lot over that time. However, we have a program of code review whereby all new code is checked by someone other than the person who created it. It's not perfect and everyone makes mistakes, but we take the quality of our code very seriously.

The Denial Of Service (DOS) attack against Mumsnet was a heavy, sustained attack which initially overwhelmed our ability to respond to legitimate requests. Mumsnet might typically get something like 50-100 requests per second. During the attack we were getting around 17,000 requests per second. Each request carried more data than is normal as well.

The hacking attack on our website was separate from the DOS, though we believe perpetrated by the same person or people. We follow many of the industry's best practices, such as using HTTPS for our login pages, keeping our database separate from our cluster of web servers and not accessible from the internet, and so on. We don't necessarily use the same standards of security as say your online banking service might use, for example requiring multiple passwords or using two factor authentication. We try to balance security against usability and the sensitivity of the information we hold. After all, as pointed out by one of you in an earlier thread, the majority of information we have about a user is what that user publishes in Talk, which is there for all to see.

As has been mentioned several times, we keep our passwords encrypted and we use the recommended algorithms for this, with high "strength" settings. This means that if someone somehow obtained the password data from our database they wouldn't be able to make any use of them - they wouldn't work on our site or on any other site even if the user used the same password on that other site. This remains the case even for MNHQ staff; they cannot un-encrypt the passwords either.

We are now pretty confident it was a phishing attack. Phishing, where a hacker gets a user to enter their username and password into a form from which they can capture that information, fits all the data we have. The hacker doesn't need to decrypt anything, because they capture the password in the browser as it is entered (either by typing it, or if it was automatically remembered by the user's browser or password manager). The list of passwords that has been published includes some that users have identified as being ones that they've mistyped. Our database wouldn't have mistyped ones, only accurate ones, whereas those collected by recording what a user submits would and does contain errors.

It's not obvious how it has been conducted though. We have been able to create a proof of concept which shows that it could work, but that relies on some steps that would be difficult or virtually impossible for a hacker. Phishing attacks sometimes use social engineering to "trick" people into using the fake website rather than the real one, but again, for various reasons, we can rule some of these out. Other phishing attacks are more technical and use other means to get people to visit the fake page. One such example is Cross Site Scripting (XSS). XSS is ranked number three on Open Web Application Security Project top ten list of web site security problems. If the hacker can get the website to put his own code on pages which are to be viewed by other users, s/he can modify the page to either redirect the login process to their own site, to a page which looks just like our login page but is actually recording the details and sending them to the hacker. Also possible, but even less likely, is modifying our login page to submit the details to the hacker as well as to us. If the hacker had gained access to our Content Management System he could have done the former, though not the later. However, we record all changes that are made and there are no suspicious ones.

It's impossible for us to know how many users' passwords have been collected. It's a reasonable assumption, and our working one, that the passwords of everybody that has logged since 6th August 2015, and possibly some time before that, have been collected.

In light of the attacks, we've bolstered some aspects of our security, particularly around our administrative functions. We have further changes planned and will be working on these in the coming days.

Forcing everyone to reset their password, as we have done, would render the list useless provided that users don't choose the same new password and they've not used the same username and password elsewhere.

Some users have questioned why certain other changes aren't being made already, such as a move to enforcing stricter passwords, which makes sense. However, given how crucial the part of our system that deals with passwords is, we have to be really cautious when making changes to it so we don't want to rush and end up creating bigger holes but we will certainly take steps to encourage users to strengthen passwords as soon as practicable.

Any questions do post here - we'll answer as transparently as we can - bearing in mind the caveat about helping future hackers mentioned earlier.

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Simurgh · 28/08/2015 19:14

The old App has been 'turned off' HexBramble because of potential security concerns - 'unable to connect with Mumsnet' is the message I'm getting on my ipad. The new App is still some weeks away. Try the mobile site?

HexBramble · 28/08/2015 18:57

I'm still getting
"connection failed. Unable to connect with Mumsnet." On my iPhone App.
I read somewhere up ^ there of an 'old App and new App'. Should I delete the App and re load?

Thanks.

Garrick · 28/08/2015 18:18

Write on only one side of the paper at once Grin

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/08/2015 18:03
Grin
securitylecturer · 28/08/2015 17:56

Although I suspect that there would be a strong correlation between those who choose to use 2-factor authentication and not using the same passwords between sites

That's relying on the fact that users of 2FA aren't homogenous with the population at large. In large-scale deployments that assumption breaks down.

And of course, the sort of users who voluntarily use 2FA are the sort of users who use password managers to deal with unique passwords and check certificates, which means they are much less susceptible to the attacks that 2FA mitigates anyway. Be a good exam question: "It has been said that Using 2FA heavily suggests you don't need to use 2FA; the people who most need 2FA are the people who don't use it. Discuss. Write on only one side of the paper at once."

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/08/2015 17:49

Fair enough. It's a tricky balance between protecting people from themselves, and ease of use.

Although I suspect that there would be a strong correlation between those who choose to use 2-factor authentication and not using the same passwords between sites Wink

securitylecturer · 28/08/2015 17:35

Yes, but the released usernames and passwords would be useless if everyone on the list had 2-step authentication set up.

Would be useless for accessing MN, at least. They'd still work for other sites with which the users had used the same credentials (as users often do). Which is a tragedy of the commons thing: by implementing 2FA a site reduces the requirements for password security and confidentiality while authenticating, but by continuing to use passwords as part of the 2FA (in fact, as the other F in their A scheme) they potentially weaken security for other sites.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/08/2015 17:10

Jeffrey could have infected his profile page just the same.

Yes, but the released usernames and passwords would be useless if everyone on the list had 2-step authentication set up.

securitylecturer · 28/08/2015 17:09

People with operator access, though, should.

And it's easy enough to implement at a first approximation: you restrict access to your administrative functions to your physically secure local network, and you make all remote access (including things like home-working moderators, of which I suspect MN has a lot) be via a VPN protected with two factor (and other mod cons, such as a certificate or a group secret). You can do with quickly with off the shelf hardware, it makes your firewalls easier and it shoudn't require major changes to the core applications. At a second approximation, you treat your office network as red as well and have everyone accessing your administrative functions use the VPN, even from across the corridor.

Neither of these is perfect, because the "restrict access to your administrative functions" bit may not be easy, and in any event will be very hard to assure with anything even remotely approximating formality. But it raises the bar for attackers massively.

Retrofitting security is hard, unfortunately.

2boysnamedR · 28/08/2015 17:09

But isn't that guessing?

Discussing admin security isn't something I would share with end users. It's not need to know

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/08/2015 17:08

Two-factor authentication isn't a hassle at all, especially if it is optional.

Most services using it allow you to specify trusted devices so you only need to do the two factor bit once.

And even when you do the whole shebang its only an extra few seconds to type in the code.

Would be nice if it was an option - that way people who want extra security with extra hassle can, and those who are more relaxed don't have to (although I do think MN should maintain a certain minimum level of security for everyone)

Garrick · 28/08/2015 17:02

xpost, LH :)

YY, I watched one of their meetings! Weird and impressive in a low-key sort of way.

Garrick · 28/08/2015 17:01

Making users jump more hurdles to log in wouldn't help, though, would it? Jeffrey could have infected his profile page just the same.

LurkingHusband · 28/08/2015 17:00

I wasn't necessarily talking about the users. More the admin.

There's an almost religious ceremony that would be needed if the internets DNS infrastructure needed rebuilding. A group of people from the W3C need to bring their encryption keys together at the same time. Not very easy to hack.

Garrick · 28/08/2015 16:59

I really don't want to have to bugger about with 2-factor just so I can log into MN! People with operator access, though, should.

2boysnamedR · 28/08/2015 16:57

I don't think any other chat type community board has a two stage log on?

Simurgh · 28/08/2015 16:46

There surely has to be some compromise between ease of access and security, though?

LurkingHusband · 28/08/2015 16:40

Passwords - particularly for non trivial applications - are a tad old-hat.

It should be two-factor authentication all the way (like I was using 10 years ago).

Garrick · 28/08/2015 16:19

Forgot to add - Having read the 8chan threads, I ? HoneyBadger Grin

Garrick · 28/08/2015 16:17

Too much MNHQ-knocking going on here. Yes, I am a data bore and, yes, I do care about web security - though my own hacking skillz are so out of date now, I just fiddle around with my phone for fun and I'm not even good at that any more.

But many, many sites are a whole lot worse than MN. Many of those interact financially with their users and/or hold more personal data on them. Having read all the 8chan threads last night (taking frequent mental health breaks), posters did actually say MN was harder to crack than they'd expected. I got the impression they lapsed into long trolling episodes to entertain themselves & keep up the motivation to find a way in. It looks like their exploit would've proved pointless if they hadn't found a couple of weak logins. That isn't MNHQ's fault: the same happened to the White House! Each user needs to be security-aware, as well as the site owners.

In any event, it's great that MN has now got a consultancy on the case :)

2boysnamedR · 28/08/2015 15:31

Would? Wouldn't!! I mean. Dyslexia,

2boysnamedR · 28/08/2015 15:20

No Jason I'm not saying it's a personal attack, not at all.

I just don't think it was on purpose or blatant flippeness ( unless like in the AM case where email history shows that they had the balls to show prolong hack interest into a rival site but check their own)

Anyhoo it does show up to me that I am rather feckless with my own security. I should know better. So from that standpoint I have to hold my hands up.

I really would want to be outed from what I post, but if I was, I would have been party to my data breach too.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 28/08/2015 15:14

And yes we are all here because we need / have needed the support of this website, I think it's brilliant but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ask questions about our own and other users saftey.

Nobody is attacking the site or the people who work here, but they are rasing valid questions regarding security, it's not a personal attack to question when accounts and info do not match up.

2boysnamedR · 28/08/2015 15:09

No you dont need to be a man to work in IT despite comments like "you can't be a programmer - your a woman!"

I don't know if it's the mindset of this field but most people love to learn more or find themselves unemployable.

I read about the AM hack and it really sparked interest in me. The comments from the hackers to AM coders to the playing AC/DC on logging on on the day of the hack.

Anyway without the SN boards here my family life and kids outlook would be a whole lot bleaker. So no lasting bad feeling from me. I know I'm a lot more relaxed with my data than I should be. I should know better

ouryve · 28/08/2015 14:56

I don't work in tech, but DH does and it is very interesting. I don't consider someone talking from a position of knowledge about stuff to be showing off, and you certainly don't have to have a penis attached to your groin to know about these things.

Incidentally, DH has been working on plans for improving his own employer's website security, this week. He went onto a perfectly legitimate (ie not dark web) site, yesterday and managed to find the means to brute force passwords held for the site. It's not a big site like mumsnet, but he still unearthed dozens of them in his lunchbreak just by using a tool which guessed lots of combinations for each account.

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