Is Mumsnet HQ evil or not very bright.

How can you pretend to believe something that you don't, Ego?

I can respect the belief of someone that they have become female but I can't change my own belief in basic biology.

lougle it goes further than that. Some would call it misgendering to say they were ever men and that transwomen were born women too even if they don't transition until later in life or in fact never transition at all, just identify as a woman.

"both born women and trans women are legally women (if the transwoman has sought conversion through the legal channels)"

That legal channels have said "Well, OK, we'll let you call yourself a woman because you care about it so much" does not mean that the man has actually and biologically been transformed into a woman by a magic (legal) wand.

"If someone tells a transwoman (or a transman) that they are male / female, is that a personal attack on that person"

Of course not. Male and Female are biological descriptions, not psychological ones. A typical XY human adult with a penis and balls dangling between his hairy legs is very obviously male, regardless of what he feels like. When a transwoman's skeleton is found centuries later, it will be called an adult human male skeleton.

I suppose the trouble is that legally a man can become a woman after having transitioned for two years (not necessarily with gender reassignment surgery), but practically Tiggy is saying that from the moment a man chooses to transition they should be seen as a woman.

For me, the issue with cis is that it implies that we who have been born with female sec characteristics are merely a variety of the species 'woman'. Legally that isn't true. It is that both born women and trans women are legally women (if the transwoman has sought conversion through the legal channels).

'Men in women's clothing' is not ok
'Males in traditionally feminine clothing' is factual
Tiny semantic difference but significant I think.
I feel for mnhq, it's a minefield.

The full quote in context of the post that has been left up is important, I feel.
It refers to a specific event in which some men who wear female clothing objected to the presence of some other men who wear female clothes for a different reason. It isn't a personal attack unless you think a man can choose to become a woman, which many people don't believe to be true.

It's a bit of a generalisation but I can see why MnHQ didn't see it as delete-worthy. They've left some borderline stuff up over the years that I thought they should delete. Irritating, but not the stuff Evil is made of.

I'm a pretty much with Pagwatch - I liked Tiggy's posts when I come across them, usually very funny, but that's outside of FWR section as I don't usually go there and I cant recall Tiggy posting on there. If he posts stuff that is hateful to women then they should be deleted and him being warned about his conduct etc.
The 'evil' thing is consistent with his style, and he's not suggesting Justine/Carrie or any of the managers actually have the sign of the devil stamped on their ankles.
But skim-reading, Tiggy as an admirer of yours in the bits I come across, I'd echo the suggestion you keep your hands or what ever part of your anatomy you use to type, away from the keyboard. Have a chat with a friend, do a bit of gardening and let MN respond in their own time? Hectoring and generally blowing a fuse won't be effective, so lay off?

There is a huge difference between deliberately calling someone "a man in a dress" to hurt or goad and holding the opinion that a pre op mtf Trans person is a man wearing a dress.
We are allowed to hold opinions on gender and we are allowed to voice them, however much some people want to shut down the debate and dictate the terms that are used.

It's illegal to discriminate against transpeople on the basis of their gender but equally it's illegal to discriminate against women on the basis of their sex.

The confusion and differing uses of gender/sex don't help this debate at all.

The discussions I have seen, posters have said they wish trans women no harm, that they need safe spaces to, that their issues and struggles need to be recognised and addressed. They are worried about how the change in laws don't seem to have been thought through, and take safety and rights away from women. These discussions need to happen imo, and I'm thankful to MNHQ for allowing these discussions.

Transwomen and women have different lived experiences and realities, and sometimes it's necessary to point out those differences to talk about issues. Sometimes one group might need to be excluded so that people feel confident and to talk about their experiences. So there will be times when Transwomen need their own space to talk about issues that affect only them and sometimes women will need the same.

It's about perception. To a trans person it no doubt feels like a personal attack. To many others, it's a statement of fact. Is either wrong with their perception ?

They are probably wading their way through them TiggyD, it's the weekend in the summer holidays I doubt they are overrun with staff tripping over themselves to reply to you to be honest. Especially if your tone is the same as it is on this thread.

Sorry it looks like bullying to you mardy it's really not meant to be, at least from my PoV, more a wry take on the somewhat ridiculous and twattish behaviour the OP has displayed regrettably often, which he's amplified by starting this rather childish and nasty thread.

I think Pagwatch's summation is probably the closest, if this was HurHurUrAllDum4519 posting this, rather than someone who's been around as long as Tiggy has, he'd have been shown the door right at the start.