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Original poster

Is Mumsnet HQ evil or not very bright.

595 replies

TiggyD · 23/07/2015 20:02

As some of you may already know you're allowed to call transgendered women "men in dresses" and refer to them as "he" and "him.

"So some men dressing as women..." as one posted said in relation to trans women got the reply from RebeccaMN:

We agree that this post is in poor taste but we don't tend to delete on those grounds because it would be really hard to know where to draw the line.
The truth is, we don't think we should be the arbiters of what people should find offensive and what they shouldn't. In these instances, it's very rare that a tasteless comment is left unchallenged, and we would highly recommend that you put forward your point of view on the thread.

Well firstly I think Mumsnet should draw the line at discrimination of a protected minority group.

Secondly, if MN don't think they should be the arbiters of what people should find offensive, maybe they should ask a representative from a human rights or anti discrimination group? Misgendering is always wrong.

Thirdly, is it rare an tasteless comment is unchallenged? Now the trans people on Mumsnet refuse to post on trans related threads who the hell is going to challenge them?

Fourthly, that post was unchallenged. Have a look at the thread.

Fifthly, "tasteless"? "TASTELESS"?! WTF? Tofu is tasteless. Would MNHQ describe calling people spastics or coons or faggots as tasteless? Misgendering is a put-down towards an entire minority. Dismissed as tasteless. Angry

A quick look at a quote about the 2010 equality act:
"harassment - unwanted behaviour linked to a protected characteristic that violates someone’s dignity or creates an offensive environment for them".

Is there harassment in trans related threads on here? Is the dignity of all transwomen violated by referring to them all as men in dresses? Bleedingly obviously yes. Does it create an offensive environment for them? How the hell could it not? Does Mumsnet do anything to stop it? No.

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It all makes me wonder if the people of MNHQ are deliberately letting all this unkindness and discrimination and harassment go on because they evil, or because they don't know any better.
I think I have it. I reckon it's like the Ricky Gervais thing where he started doing "Mong" faces. All kinds of people told him it was offensive and an unkind name for people with Downs Syndrome but he refused to accept it. I think he thought that as he believed himself to be a good person, and he used the word mong, that mong had to be an acceptable word because he was good. I think it must be like that in MNHQ. They believe themselves to be good people and when they allow people to call transwomen men on thier site it's fine because their belief in themselves being good trumps all the views of the victims.

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One question for MNHQ that I alluded to earlier. Have you ever asked any kind of trans, human rights, or anti-discrimination group about how to treat trans people?

Have you?

Ever?

OP posts:
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kua · 05/08/2015 20:18

band quite possibly. .

Original poster
TiggyD · 05/08/2015 20:16

I know you don't get it, partly because you have no skin in the game and partly because you don't even read and consider the posts on trans threads except to pick out supposed transphobia.

Actually, no pro trans/trans ally posts on those threads. Does that tell you something?

Your fighting spirit would be much welcomed in the battle against the effects of rampant hyper masculinity which is the common enemy of women and transwomen. Up for it?

I do my bit.

OP posts:
BanditoShipman · 05/08/2015 20:14

But Caitlin Jenner is a man, he was born a man, biologically he is a man. I can't put I believe in front of that sentence because it's not a personal belief it's a biological fact Confused

Is it right that unless I lie and say he is a she I'm transphobic? Caitlin Jenner can be a transwoman but not a woman.

Sorry mnhq I've prob just started it all again :(

Original poster
TiggyD · 05/08/2015 20:12

If I was refer to somebody with a disability or who is a different race or sexuality with an insulting name it would get removed. Why do HQ not afford trans people the same dignity on their site.

OP posts:
TheCowThatLaughs · 05/08/2015 20:12

Sorry I can't have this conversation again. It's a load of bollocks (literally)
Too boring

NotJustaPotforSoup · 05/08/2015 20:11

I'm surprised that you are surprised that a website with a forum largely populated by women is not giving you the answers you think you deserve. On what basis you derive that belief that your are owed a more substantive response , I'm still not sure.

I know you don't get it, partly because you have no skin in the game and partly because you don't even read and consider the posts on trans threads except to pick out supposed transphobia.

Your fighting spirit would be much welcomed in the battle against the effects of rampant hyper masculinity which is the common enemy of women and transwomen. Up for it?

Whiskwarrior · 05/08/2015 20:11

Other parenting forums are available.

Other forums are available.

There is nothing making you post here so why all the angst?

If I was that bothered about something on here I'd log off. I have been known to do that. The world continued to turn.

TheCowThatLaughs · 05/08/2015 20:09

Nothing?

Original poster
TiggyD · 05/08/2015 20:09

I do Cow. But what happens when they get left up?

OP posts:
kua · 05/08/2015 20:07

Oh, I read it, but I can't understand why you think this site/ moderators can police the wider public on every view.

TheCowThatLaughs · 05/08/2015 20:04

You're so fucking rude! Report any posts you see that say that then! What's the problem?!

kua · 05/08/2015 20:03

tiggy Then perhaps you should look at your way of communicating.

Original poster
TiggyD · 05/08/2015 20:03

Do you actually want to stop any debate or do you want there to be space for people (women) to discuss issues that affect them? As I said in the post you just didn't read, I have no problem with debate. It's the stating things as facts that is the main problem.
eg "I don't believe trans women are women. I think they're confused men." That's an opinion. Fine.
But when it gets slipped into a conversation, eg "Men like Caitlyn Jenner...", that's misgendering and it's transphobic.

OP posts:
Sparklingbrook · 05/08/2015 20:03

Maybe they just don't want to engage with you any more? You never seem satisfied with anything they say.

TheCowThatLaughs · 05/08/2015 20:03

Just give it up now, eh? You don't have to post here if you don't want to

Original poster
TiggyD · 05/08/2015 19:59

Tiggy You asked the question and it was answered. It wasn't answered.

Pretty poor form to repost a personal response. Yup. Unfortunately it's the only way to communicate with HQ. I did send them a reply about a week ago but got no response.

OP posts:
Sparklingbrook · 05/08/2015 19:56

Agreed kua.

kua · 05/08/2015 19:55

Tiggy You asked the question and it was answered.

Pretty poor form to repost a personal response.

TheCowThatLaughs · 05/08/2015 19:55

I can't work out what you want them to say? Do you actually want to stop any debate or do you want there to be space for people (women) to discuss issues that affect them?
It comes across as you wanting to stop us from being able to talk about this tbh.
There are plenty of transpeople who do not believe themselves to actually be the opposite sex. So who you're defending, I'm not sure Hmm

Sparklingbrook · 05/08/2015 19:51

Not this again.

Original poster
TiggyD · 05/08/2015 19:42

Well I waited and got the response that I've bolded in my reply to them I made about a week ago. They didn't respond.

Interesting to note that at no point have they ever said there is no transphobia on their site. Hmm.

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Hello MNHQ,

I'd like to point out that the thread I started was mostly due to there seemingly being no way to have a conversation with you at HQ. Every critical post is replied to with a bland bullshit corporate reply where the aim is to stop the conversation as quickly as possible without being held liable for any of your policies or actions. If you won't open the door for a chat, the only option is to stand in the street and shout.

Your response: You didn't answer my question about harassment. You do allow it, it has lead to trans people not wanting to post, that is discrimination against a protected characteristic. That's why you didn't answer that question. You know you're in the wrong.

On reflection we've deleted the post you reported. Sorry for not doing that sooner, these issues are not uncomplicated and sometimes it take a while particularly when there's a lot of people with very strong views arguing the toss.
Saying transwomen are men is transphobic. A rule that can be expressed in 6 words is not hard to understand. People saying what they believe is totally different. People have said they think transwomen are men, fine. It's not expressed as a fact.

In answer to the other points you raised I'm happy to say we've had no complaints at MNHQ from Trans staff and that we are committed to principles of equality and diversity.
Glad to hear it, but that wasn't my question was it? I asked if your office policies were the same as your posting policies. In other words, do you let staff refer to trans members of staff by the wrong pronouns? You answered a question I didn't ask. Why? We both know why don't we? If a member of staff said the things that get said on the forums to a trans member of staff you would have to take action against them or you'll get your bum sued off. You know you're in the wrong.

We do also believe in the power of conversation, debate and freedom of speech and we find that many of the trickiest moderation decisions come down to trying to balance these aims. We are human and therefore liable to err but we do the best we can.
Agreed.

We have indeed worked with Stonewall closely in the past and will certainly consider seeking their advice on trans issues going forward. Thanks for the suggestion.
Stonewall? THE Stonewall? The Stonewall that until lately didn't include the 'T' in LGBT? The Stonewall that used transphobic words in their literature and tried to give awards to transphobic writers that lead to transpeople condemning them and picketing their awards night? Twice? That Stonewall? You might want to check with them again now they've become less transphobic themselves.

As you probably know Mumsnet's aim is to make parents' lives easier by pooling and sharing advice and support. We ask members to be respectful of each other's opinions even if they don't agree with them. Looking at your recent posting and reporting history we are wondering if this is the site for you? It doesn't seem to be the case that you are getting anything other than frustration from your participation and that the manner of your participation is causing endless confrontation.
You usually say people should address the issues on the threads rather. You have been told before by several people than any attempts to do so will guarantee a massive bun-fight which degenerates into all the usual arguments and having to justify the rights of trans people which are law. And now you're complaining that I'm addressing it? You think the way to stop the transphobia on this site is to stop the victims of it from complaining about it? That's bad Mumsnet.

And I read more than I post you know. The camping section has been very handy in particular.

Given our aim to make parents' lives easier, we wonder whether it might be time to have a break from the site, so you might come back in a better frame of mind?
You think the way to stop the transphobia on this site is to tell the victims to go away? That's very, very bad Mumsnet.

Please talk to the new Stonewall, who now say they care about trans matters, or a trans group would be even better. Show them this email.

Regards,
Tiggy.

And please respond to this email too.

OP posts:
MNHQ
IonaMumsnet · 26/07/2015 11:33

Morning, everyone. We've had lots of communication from many of you about this thread, both reports and direct emails. We're sorry we aren't able to keep on top of them all - we've been a bit inundated. We run a skeleton staff on weekends and we don't feel we have the time and resources to give this thread and the issues raised by it adequate consideration today.

We're going to suspend this thread just for now while we have a good read and try to catch up on all the reports. We'll have a thorough look at it again when the whole team is back in the office.

Tiggy - apologies we haven't been able to reply to all your points raised individually on this thread and in your emails. We will get onto this and get a full response to you as soon as we are able. Thanks everyone, for bearing with us.

CoogerAndDark · 26/07/2015 10:57

Possibly MNHQ feel they have addressed the issues previously in all the other threads. I would agree they have.

alexpolistigers · 26/07/2015 10:55

*" Egosumquisum Sat 25-Jul-15 21:08:40

TBH - what people say on here doesn't affect me at all. It's happened so many times that I'm immune to it.

You are words on a screen."*

Good, so you won't be hurt by any of these posts and you won't feel the need to avoid the thread.

CoogerAndDark · 26/07/2015 10:48

That's absolutely fine, Ego. It seemed the perfect example of how Trans women are treated in here, before all the encroachment on the rights of biological women gets involved.
I it relevant to this thread, where the central premise is that a site's owners and employees act maliciously or lack intelligence. No worries, as I said previously there are many more threads like that one that do not involve you.