Is Mumsnet HQ evil or not very bright.

Fair enough, although tbf, it is his thread.

I think the consensus on the last general thread about this with MNHQ input was that absolutely any misgendering would be deleted as a PA.
Perhaps MNHQ have done their own research and seen the wider implications of the attempts by a militant branch of Trans people to use this subject as a way to silence women.

The comment highlighted by the OP isn't something a little sheltered and bigoted 'typical MN poster' has said. There's a whole load of people out there, LGBT, who don't want to let a small number of m to F trans stamp all over the rights of others.

No I do take those points but I'd hate to see this interesting discussion descend into a focus on one person. I don't want to think about or talk about him. and it risks becoming a bit of a everyone-against-one-poster situation which would derail it entirely.

But I do see what you are saying and it is relevant at least on one level.

Some people don't like the idea that there is somewhere for women to get together and do their own thing without being policed by men .

Y'know, talk and think and debate on our own terms , without men telling us how to do it properly

Not telling you to fuck off, by the way, just genuinely curious about why a man who isn't even a parent would hang out on MumsNet. Especially since you don't seem to like us very much and disagree on such a fundamental level with the way this site is run.

Oh, I don't know, SophiesDog. Sometimes ignoring the man behind the curtain isn't the best thing to do imo.

I'm remembering Tiggy's posts on various threads and there is no doubt in my mind that he is misogynist.

Even if this were the first thread you have ever seen his posts in, would you not say that there is something very wrong with a man who is not even a parent repeatedly coming on MumsNet to tell women what to think about womanhood? Even petitioning MNHQ to censor women when we talk about transwomen, FFS.

On that note - Is there no other website on the internet that will have you, Tiggy? Peace and love and all that, but it is rather strange that you have decided to grace us with your presence for so long, given that you are neither a woman nor even a parent.

That's as may be but it isn't really relevant. We are discussing a stance on terminology - there will be all sorts of perspectives but what matters is what is written and not why.

I've seen the Op being utterly hateful off board about members of the FWR topic, Princess. So no reading between the lines needed. It's very clear where he is coming from on this issue and it isn't from the vantage point of someone who has the best interests of the Trans community in mind.

I would support that stance PrincessFiorimonde.

I don't know Tiggy very well on here though we have had vague run ins in the past. I would rather debate the issue at hand than attack his character or assume his motives. They're not relevant - the arguments he presents, or doesn't, are enough to form a starting point.

The person posting them is as usual best ignored

I hate the term 'cis woman', as I hope my previous post made clear.

But, you know, I'm a bit uneasy at the OP being described as an 'MRA misogynist' wanting women to be 'silenced'.

I've seen a few of Tiggy's posts (admittedly, not those in FWR in recent times) and I just don't think that's a fair description.

You might disagree with him on this issue (ffs, I disagree with him on this issue too), but that doesn't make him the devil incarnate. Especially as there are many women who hold the same view.

All I mean is: IMHO can't we argue against the opinion, rather than demonising the person who holds it?

It's not treating everyone as equal if you mean calling everyone who wants to be called a woman, a woman.
For those who object to being called 'trans' women, there is always the term 'men'.

The prefixes are only needed when talking about trans issues to distinguish between tran and cis women or men. Some would refer to women as either "transwomen" or "women". That's not treating everybody equally is it?

But surely 'Transwomen' is a statement of fact? It is a biological fact?

"If you don't identify as a woman, you aren't"

Actually, if you are an adult human female, a woman is exactly what you are.

That is the very definition of the word 'woman' and it has nothing to do with what you 'feel like' or 'identify'.

It's all well and good that a very small group of males think they are women, feel like women (whatever that means), want to be called 'she' etc and it is equally well and good that we now have the technology to provide them with the hormones and surgery that helps them look the part, but I personally the draw the line of my tolerance and compassion at they try to get us to redefine what a woman is.

"There are not cis women and trans women, there are women and trans women. The word woman has a perfectly serviceable definition and there is no need to redefine it." This I agree with, absolutely.

"I hear of cis all the time, it's used by many many people mostly those describing themselves." This I have not experienced, ever.

"I wonder how many trans men insist on using [the term] cis men?" I wonder, too.

And basically everything that Laurie, FanaticalFairy and Buffy have said above.

"This thread and every other thread I've ever read on this topic only reinforces my view that trans people and trans issues are being massively manipulated with one purpose in mind and that purpose is misogyny."

^ This.

I use cis/trans in my field...where it means having all the same bits, but arranged differently and therefore behaving differently.

Before this 'cisgender' terminology was invented, I assumed the derivation of 'trans' in 'transsexual' was akin to 'transport', 'transform' - something implying change. We use 'transpennine' for trains and roads - a means of getting from A to B rather than the relative positioning. (Although the Romans may have used 'cis' geographically, I've never heard it in modern usage).

No that's true Saskia.

I don't feel I have a gender, rather that it's something that was applied to me. However I don't think it's helpful to completely ignore gender because even though many/most women don't feel their gender really fits who they are, it does have an impact on how they live, and ignoring it won't make that go away.

Not sure if I've been very clear there, but what I'm trying to say is that even though I don't feel like a women, society sees and treats me as one, and I can't deal with the negative repercussions of that if I don't acknowledge my applied gender.

Look Marwood with all due respect, I don't fancy any of those peculiar terms.

They are all totally meaningless to me.

I'm a woman, because I have a female body and that is ALL there is to it. I don't really know how you define someone identifying as female or male anyway. You could say 'Oh I don't like wearing dresses' - so? That's nothing to do with your gender.
I don't get all the fuss. I really just don't understand it.

You can be a bloke and like wearing frocks, or a woman and like wearing jeans. It means NOTHING.

It starts and stops with biology for me. Everything else is neither here nor there.

And should anyone seek to define me by any of these terms, I would resent it, just like the time someone decided I was bisexual because I happened to engage in sex, once, under some duress, with a woman.

No matter why I did it, whether or not I enjoyed it, what my feelings towards other women are in general - bisexual was not a term I wanted to subscribe to. Heterosexual doesn't really appeal either - or gay - I just don't feel the need to have a word for what I am, or what I do, or what I feel. It isn't something I even think about - some people like and need those terms. I don't feel it is important.

Even if I was regularly involved in sexual relationships with other women, which I am not - no one else gets to tell me what I am, because it's a word, and it's subjective. It's no one else's business.

Afaik
Queer = not binary/straight
Genderqueer = feeling like both a man and a woman
Agender = feeling like neither a man nor a woman

I'm happy to acknowledge that I have a gender and I am a woman in both physical and sociological senses but I believe that my sense of gender is a direct result of being female and growing up within the gender role that being female entails.

Biologically female/woman is fine for me, Marwood. It doesn't matter if I strong,y identify or not. I still am one. A m to f trans person is not and can never be.

So what's queer then?