Making Adoption board "opt in"

Apologies Stacey; sense of humour fail! I have also messaged Kew to apologise.

It used to be that FWR for most of the trolls and goady fuckers, but adoption seems to be getting them now . They have the same style

" here I am with a man's perspective . Now you stupid women sit down and listen because I'm an going to tell you what's wrong with feminism and how you lot should be doing it . It's about X Y and Z to do with men . If you did it my way then more men would engage with You Feminsists"

On adoption we get

" Here I am with the perspective of someone who has given birth. Now you neurotic adopters listen because I will tell you everything that is wrong with adoption in the world and why you lot should fix it . It's all about adoption in the UK in the 1950s / what I read in the daily fail / what I saw on Jeremy Kyle . If you did it my way them more people like me would engage with you "

So we patiently explain

1. While your views are interesting , they don't automatically override out own just because you have squeezed a baby out of your vagina.

1. Some of us have done that too but we don't think it qualifies us for anything .

1. We are all just individuals , we don't officially represent adoption in the universe .

1. We know there is a lot wrong with adoption in the UK, we are struggling with things every day of our lives that were caused by The System

1. There are lots of kids waiting for families , if you are such an expert , why don't you join in ( there's always a reason why THEY can't do it at all but we should do it better )

1. We don't actually want to get more rude people like you debating with us. We want a place for support with issues that affect us and / or our kids. If we end up educating random polite , interested strangers along the way then that's fine too.

1. Yes it's interesting to hear about the needs of [ other group ]. Why don't YOU go and work to support them rather than tell us to do so ?

1. Just because we don't agree with you, we are not dismissing you or being rude or pushing you off the boards . I know that you are used to having people defer to your opinion all the time because you are a [ member of privileged group ] but this is OUR space .

9 . Please accept that it's NOT ABOUT YOU. I know that's hard to accept if you have spent you life as [ part of privileged group ] but really ITS NOT . This is a safe place for us to talk about things that affect us. You have the rest of Mumsnet / the Internet .

Willow, I think it was a joke

I like the sub categories suggestion. I wouldn't want adoption spread out between different topics. I am an adoptee and also an adoptive parent, somewhat stating the obvious but they are very different experiences! It would be useful I think to have somewhere within the board to explore a wider spectrum of adoption experience. I know that in theory this can be (and has been) done on the current board, but think it might be easier within sub categories. Less possibility of offending or upsetting others who might be in a totally different place/stage of life. There is nothing to stop people reading and posting and learning/lurking on whatever bit they choose of course.

The emotions aroused by some of the inter linked adoption experience can be very raw. recently I can remember terribly sad threads started by a birth mother who was full of anger and grief about the removal of a child, and a thread by a prospective adopter who I think had been doing foster to adopt and had the child returned to the birth family. There are of course strong parallels in the experiences, loss, grief anger, and thus could be argued should be in the same place. but they are at different places on the spectrum of adoption experience both looking for support at their time of need. Would it be easier for posters looking for support to be able to click on the most appropriate adoption sub category?

I'm also an adoption lurker (we would like to adopt or foster in the distant future) and I just wanted to pitch in that I totally understand why adopters would like the opt-in idea!

I've seen so many derailed threads and it just seems so inappropriate when people are looking for support.

I have 3 children with various medical issues (2 have hearing loss) and the burden of having to educate strangers about your child in the face of judgemental comments is frequently the worst thing about about it. Sympathetic space with parents who understand and have experience is so important.

That seems totally true of adopters too.

I agree with Kew ( ) - it's always irritated me that adoption is within 'Becoming a Parent' as well.

My concern with splitting adoption into different sections would be that there aren't that many posters who regularly use adoption and the less populated sections could easily die off. Plus, I think everyone is often helped by having the perspectives of all sections of the adoption triangle contribute to some threads - I know I'd certainly feel reluctant to post in the adoptees or birth family section because I am in neither group.

Having said all that though, I can see the benefits of different sections... So I'm going to sit on the fence.

But whether there's sections or not, it needs to be opt in.

It's always irritated me that adoption was in becoming a parent but it might dilute things a bit spreading them around the board.

slkk you're supposed to start your post I agree with kew

I was wondering about categories. The adult adopters thread is great,, but it is one jumbled thread and not an opportunity to start a thread about specific issues (though they could in the general adoption section I guess).

to make it seem way that way

I don't feel like it's for me if you see what I mean - I think it is exactly for you and if there is any way to make it seem way way I'd support it.

Rather than splitting adoption is there a way of having subcategories?

Adoption:

• pre-adoption
• adoptive parents
• birth families
• adoptees
• general

(I know "general" is lame - someone else can come up with a better non-specific category)

I still think some or all of these should be opt in - some of the harshest comments I've seen to birth parents have been from non-adopters to be honest.

Offredalba please don;t feel bad about people"arguing" on this thread it is chance for everyone to have their say without it impinging on anyone's personal situation then a decision can be made with everyone having had the chance to say what they think and know they've been heard.

I'm sorry you feel that way willow I am feeling very defensive at the moment hence my kneejerk plea to not rehash the other thread. What you see as an order was really a groan of I can't cope with that thread seeping onto others. Apologies if that didn't come across but I'm allowed to say it in the same way you are allowed to disagree with me - I did ask nicely with a "Please". I'm sure you're not really saying that I can't ask posters to not rehash that thread, anymore than I can stop you if you want to. I agreed with you, my "lets not rehash" comment was more to ask if we could not continue to discuss it on this thread.

In the past when Maryz or MrsDV posted more on adoption, I spent a great deal of time saying I agree with Maryz/MrsDV that doesn't mean I thought that Adoption was their domain and would disagree with them if I actually did.

Adoption has become more combative over the past couple of years and adopters have become more defensive as a result - I'm sure that applies to me as much as anyone. And no-one regrets it more than me - I have benefited hugely from the Adoption section over the past 10 years and I hate that I post less often now, feel uncomfortable starting threads and seem to end up in more arguments. It isn't what I want and I have gone for longish periods over the past two years posting relatively little and as it seems I'm irritating quite a few posters I'll try to moderate my tone going forward.

I don't personally like the idea of splitting adoption - it should be for everyone touched by adoption. My issue is not with anyone starting threads in adoption - though I think someone with no adoption experience at all would be a little impolite to start a thread on a contentious issue when really for them its "chat" or "news". My issue is with specific threads about a specific child being hijacked by people who have something general to say about adoption which isn't at all related to that child or that situation then objecting to being told that it isn't relevant in this case. There was a thread not long ago about a parent with a recently placed older child wanting advice on discipline. It's a difficult one to handle when someone who was adopted at birth insists that their view on disciplining such a child is the right one when they don't accept that an older child who is recently placed is a very different kettle of fish. What as a poster do you do? Say "thank you for your input" then ignore? Explain that it is different when a child is adopted older then end up in a debate which becomes as much about that one poster as it was about the OP? Equally I don't really want to be polite to someone with no experience of what I'm going through to tell me how normal it is, I've heard it enough and it isn't - 60% of of my parenting is "normal" and I know what it feels like. I wouldn't expect to wander into SN and explain to them how what they're going through is quite normal or to give people advice in the large families on how to handle 4+ children or explain to someone who's just had a C-section how they should feel afterwards. It would be ridiculous and it's happened so much over the past few years that yes, we have lost our ability to be patient (not so everyone as Italian will without fail explain patiently once more - though perhaps she cuts and pastes from one thread to the next). And that doesn't touch the sides of the number of times we're told we're doing it wrong.

I don't think that making adoption an opt-in would remove this completely and of course people will continue to disagree with each other within adoption but I think it would cut out the people who see the thread title in active and wander in thinking "Ooh that's interesting" and start posting. And it certainly won't stop the trolling or effect by people like Melvin. But anyone with an interest would/could opt in whether they are touched personally by adoption or not.

I don't like the idea of splitting adoptive parents into a separate section - despite what some posters seem to believe I get a lot out of others' perspectives particularly those with experience in the education field, adoptees themselves, birth parents and their families. It does me good to be reminded in real time rather than as an academic exercise of the pain that birth families feel and how some adoptees even with the best parenting possible feel different.

vvviola I can see how the board does seem primarily for adopters rather than adoptees or birth families, but I think that's because of the numbers involved rather than any deliberate move. I haven't been a regular poster on there for a long time, but I know that both adoptees and birth family members have always been welcomed and supported where possible.

There's a thread running at the moment for adult adoptees which will hopefully become a regular thread and may help to redress the balance a little.

I agree it should be opt-in.

Disclaimer - I am not an adopter and have never posted on an adoption thread. But I lurk a lot, partly because I'm interested and partly because I work with children. Reading the adoption board helps me to better support the adopted and fostered children I work with, and their families.

JammySods I thought the suggestion was more about people other than adoptive parents who have been touched in some way by adoption (e.g. people like me - adopted at/near birth, unknown birth parents, adoption throwing up the occasional curve ball in relation to the parenting of my own children).

While I lurk occasionally on the adoption board I don't feel like it's for me if you see what I mean.

And people have been educated on that.

Furthermore, if someone is being a twat then I'm right behind you in telling them they are being a twat :)

But when someone's misunderstood or said 'my child does that too' they don't deserve a backlash and You Can't Possibly Understand; Things Are Different Now.

I understand.

But sometimes I still disagree.

I very rarely post on adoption because I see most threads as - I don't know, having a 'place'. So for example if someone posts in 'large families' about people going on about the size of their family I wouldn't say anything but if someone posted in AIBU or chat asking if adding to their family I would reply and say I don't think it is.

But if you do try to post elsewhere on the board about adoption, you get told to visit adoption! Or you get an adopter ranting at you and sometimes complaining about you on adoption.

I think if we take the point that MN is to support families that's a good one and I think adoptive parents need a place to take the issues that are particular to them. But unlike other areas, adoption touches other people too. And there are issues with adoption that people want to discuss.

Perhaps the sensible thing would be to ask debate and discussion to be kept on the main boards and adoption to only be for adoptive parents whether prospective or existing.

Thanks willow and tether.

I am sure that there would be some downsides to having two forums, and I don't know what they should be called by Mumsnet.
I do think that adopters need and deserve to have a place to be supported.

If it reduces some of the tension that springs up, it might be worth a try.
Please excuse me if I don't post more. I hate these arguments.

Why do people think we need a section within adoption for people to come and discuss adoption who have no link to adoption (because birth families, adopters and adoptees are all managing to get along fine for the most part in the current section). Aren't there a myriad of places on the general site where these discussions could take place?

Is there an area within SN for non-involved people to discuss things that might be hard for those involved to hear? Or an area within pregnancy choices for pro-lifers to discuss things? To my mind all these things are similar. Why should MNHQ create a special area for people to come and tell us we've picked our children like we pick a new car or handbag? Or that we've stolen our children and they'll all return to their real families once they realise what we've done? Or that all we're interested in is perfectly heathy, white, blonde and blue-eyed babies?

If people are being defensive it's because we're sick of being the subject of 'helpful' advice/idle musings/ill informed ravings. The adoption board is primarily there for support, that means wading in to tell us how we're all doing things wrong generally won't go down well.

It is sad that adoptive parents are becoming 'othered', I agree, but at the moment it's the only way I can see that we can protect ourselves.

No one is rehashing anything Kew but giving their point of view.

Could you stop, please, being so defensive? You were one of my all time favourite posters until recently. Kind, funny and sensible. Lately, i feel like anything other than 'I agree with Kew' will unleash paragraphs of how right you are and how wrong we are - usually with something about how you're not selfish as well.

The adoption board isn't your domain actually but site stuff definitely isn't and I'm NOT being told what I can and can't post within talk guidelines.

That's interesting, offred.

Do you think having an Adoption AND an Adoptive Parents topic would help? Or is that needlessly separating the two? Could it lead to adoptive parents feeling further marginalised?

I sometimes lurk and post on the adoption board and I'm not an adopter- I have to say, I've never ever been made to feel unwelcome.

Please let's not turn this into another thread where we're told what what we do wrong but if it'll clear the air:

1 - yes both"sides" have said things they shouldn't have on the letterbox thread, let's not rehash it on here.
2 - if you think we never consider that anything our children do is a normal developmental stage then you haven't read enough threads! There a current one discussing how our children went through a phase of licking horrible things - no hint of it being an adoption issue. But I for one was convinced by the "oh all children do that" despite my nagging uncertainty that it didn't seem right and lost years before finally persuading school to have him assessed when my.concerns were realised. I now advise people to err on the side of caution, I don't see why anyone would object to that advice advice - if the phase is temporary then no harm done, it not like the " treatment " for many of these issues like funnelling is harmful. And sometimes what a parent needs is permission to say to people in real life "no, I don't think this is quite right". And many adoptive parents are also birth parents

Good post offred

Hi,

I think that an opt in is a good idea.
I also feel that it would be beneficial for Mumsnet to have another forum which is not focused on supporting new and prospective adoptive parents.

There are tens of thousands of people in the UK who have been touched by adoption. Many of them have been shamed into secrecy. Many could benefit from openness and support which has been denied to them in the past, and which is not always available to them from those whose experience is quite new, and not from the losing end of adoption. There are many aspects of the adoption journey which the good people on this forum have not yet reached.

An adopted mother visiting this board is hardly a disinterested party who stumbled in, and yet her (most likely) well intentioned suggestions sparked the recent train wreck. There are many more dimensions to motherhood in adoption, other than 'becoming a parent by adoption', however this the only place that mums can find on the site.

I respect that the adoptive mothers on the site want to maintain a safe environment to discuss challenging issues. Some of these are hard for others to read. Adoption is filled with loss and hurt on all sides, and most of us try to be kind and respectful. However, there are people who would like to share ideas and experiences which might be hard for adopters or prospective adopters to hear, without causing the hurt and discord which resulted this time.

Many thanks,