I wonder if having a Transgender topic might be useful?

The problem is that no matter what the ins and outs are of gender and sex, there's a conflict between the needs of transwomen and the needs of biological women on a practical day to day level and the law is currently set up to favour the needs of one over the other.

Both groups face harm and discrimination but instead of looking for solutions that ensure no harm or discrimination is done to either group, we're all concentrating on what we each think is the lesser harm. For me that entails prioritising the needs of biological women and for others, it entails prioritising the needs of transwomen.

I wholly accept that there is hatred involved on both sides but I think we can all agree that it is restricted to a very small but sadly vocal minority and the rest of us simply want to live our lives with freedom from harm and discrimination instead of being forced into pointless arguments about who is the most oppressed.

I think it's entirely ok for each side to set out their non negotiable parameters such as biological women saying that women only spaces are a no go for transwomen and for transwomen to say that male only spaces are a no go for them and instead of fighting to keep each other out, we should be working towards finding a solution that lets everyone in.

I'd like to hear transwomen who are not transactivists saying what they think they need and what compromises they feel could be made or not made and seeing if there genuinely is a goal that we could support them in achieving. If wanting to have that discussion is perceived as hatred and transphobia, the extremists have won and the rest of us lose.

How do we reconcile providing support for transwomen to live their lives as or to be able to pass as women without many biological women feeling that this is a deception being forced upon them which leaves them vulnerable ? Gay rights were about being able to live openly and freely whereas trans rights seem, to me, to be about only being able to live freely if they don't have to live openly as trans. I can't help but think that if we were to remove the social stigma of being transgender then there would be no need for transwomen to deny their status or existence and we could all move forward more openly and freely.

I agree Flora. Let's not forget insisting on using women's facilities even if there are non-sexed facilities available and insisting that it wouldn't matter if the person doing your smear was male as long as you thought they were female.

I am coming to think that the often-stated idea that there is a small number of extremists who are causing all the trouble while most MTTs don't agree with them is not true. Stating that it is hateful or bigoted to use the words "born make" is an extremist position. Equating the experience of middle class white men with Muslims is extremist.

The "tiny" number of extremists seem to be doing a great job of writing for mainstream media outlets and getting laws changed. I frankly don't care how representative they are of the overall population of MTTs as the supposed non-extremists are doing fuck all for women except telling them how mean and horrible they are

WTF do you think trans people think about that idea [that transwomen were "born male"]?

I think that some transwomen would recognise that as a biological fact, and others would dispute it, because they unfortunately are suffering from a delusion. And others would dispute it because they don't understand the most basic facts of biology. And still others would dispute it because it suits their political agenda to dispute it. Different people would respond to that statement in different ways, what a shock. Their reactions wouldn't stop it from being anything more or less than a biological fact.

A person born with a Y chromosome, male genitalia and all other biological features of maleness, who genuinely believes himself to be of the female sex and to have been born female, has a delusion. From Oxford: Delusion (n): An idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

To say this isn't unkind, or hateful, or transphobic, or bigoted. To label these facts with those words is to buy into the idea that there is something shameful about having a mental disorder. There isn't. There shouldn't be a stigma about it, and people who consider themselves to be transgender shouldn't be discriminated against any more than people with anorexia should be. Or schizophrenia, or biopolar disorder, or dissociative personality disorder. They should be full and equal members of society and treated with respect and compassion. They should have access to reasonable accommodation like anyone else who has a disorder or disability. Maybe this means access private bathrooms or changing rooms. Maybe it means that if there's a women's support group set up by a university, there must also be equal accommodation (the use of a room, a budget if applicable) made for a trans support group, if there are trans people who wish to establish one.

But what it doesn't mean, is that the rest of society has to throw away reality and rational argument, and pretend that delusion is fact. And it doesn't mean that people who were born female should be any less safe, or should be made to feel any less safe, or should be made to feel any less comfortable in female spaces, or should be less accurately represented in records of achievements or crimes or pay rates or any other statistic that means something to women, or should be hindered in their discussions and activism on issues important to women.

I am very close to and supportive of my schizophrenic relative, and I have an enormous about of love and respect and admiration for him. But I don't pretend for his benefit that he's absolutely right about the house being bugged by the CIA, and I don't feel compelled to live my life as if that were true, whispering into the ears of the rest of the family, out of respect for someone else's delusion.

buttocks your understanding of the arguments is spot on. Yes, many argue that "feeling like" or "identifying as" a woman makes you so, and you should therefore have access to women only spaces, regardless of physically appearance or biology.

70-80% of trans women never have a full sex change op. They might take hormones or have breast implants or wear traditionally "female" clothes, or in some cases do nothing and still have a beard but declare they identify as a woman so anyone who says they're not is a horrible bigot.

You're entirely right Buttocks.

cis (along with trans) comes from chemistry and means on the same side (as opposed to on the other side for trans). So transgender means that a person's internal gender identity does not match with their sex while cisgender means that a person's internal gender identity matches with their sex. Trans people and their supporters like to apply it to everyone who is not trans. The problem with this is that it assumes that everyone who is not trans has an internal gender identity whereas most women (and probably men) don't seem to actually have an internal gender identity.

What does cis mean? (I have no knowledge about this subject whatsoever but have found many arguments about it on here recently and am intrigued...)

From my position of ignorance, the impression I'm getting is that people who've changed from male to female are saying they want people to discount the fact they were born male and grew up as boys, and accept them as actual women? And some women are saying that these people will retain some maleness as their brains haven't been changed, and are not actual women?

I've never heard the term transphobic before either, but I guess it is supposed to be like homophobic, but prejudiced against people who've changed sex?

I'm no intellectual and not a scientist either, so I'm sure there is much more complexity to it. Perhaps keeping these discussions in places like chat or mainstream areas will give more people a chance to understand what this is about.

The one thing I really don't understand is talk of people 'identifying' as something other than they are... it sounds as though if a man 'identifies' as a woman but doesn't have a sex change, then he should be treated like a woman and allowed in women-only spaces?

If trans people don't like being lumped in with the transactivists then they should speak up against them. I don't think anyone sees trans people as a homogenous mass though. I think everyone is smart enough to realise that just because some transwomen are rapists, it doesn't mean they all are etc. It does mean that women need protection from the rapists though.

Really Ego you know how Muslims feel??? Is your home being drone bombed? Are your toddlers being screened for extremism? Your at 10 I suggest you bring it down to a 2.

Repeated use of born male

Please explain how it's transphobic to say that trans women were born male? By all reasonable definitions of the word male, they were. Pretending otherwise is not rational or helpful to anyone, least of all trans people.

You never offer any solutions, just shout down the solutions that other people suggest. You really don't help your cause.

How do you suggest we discuss these issues then? With your feelings put above those of women?

lunch

I did report that one

Is Tiggy trying to stop women talking about things that concern them again? What a surprise.

If we're all such horrible transphobes and bigots on the chat threads then why were we so nice to Miranda Yardley when she popped in?

Um. As a feminist I find the transgender threads on here puzzling and uncomfortable - they're this alternative world where what a couple of extremist fuckwits who happen to be trans say on the internet is taken far too seriously and used to smear all trans people.

TiggyD I find your comparison to the BNP extremely offensive. I had the misfortune of living in Barking when the BNP were making gains in local government. The intimidation I felt, the constant fear of violence and actual violence I experience is not mirrored on these threads.

I really fucking grates on me when people use others peoples lived experience and make false equivalencies to things that make them feel uncomfortable.