Would MNHQ consider extending the definition of "misgendering"

As a scientist teaching in HE, can I just say that I object to the misappropriation of the 'cis' and 'trans' terms. It is confusing enough for students to learn biochemical isomerism without adding a whole new layer of meanings!

If you want to define yourself as 'woman', then do. Your history or biology or gender performance is neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as accountant, then do. Your knowledge, qualifications, or experience are neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as 14 years old, then do. Your year of birth, biological age, life experience are neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as French, then do. Your lack of connection to or knowledge of the country or culture of France are neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as gay, then do. Your heterosexual preferences are neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as disabled, then do. Your lack of any physical, learning, or mental disability is neither here nor there.

No Shanna, the brain does not dictate gender. Have a read of Cordelia Fine's 'Delusions of Gender' if you're interested.

I'm a woman, don't think of myself as cis at all and don't like being called cis.
Our trans-related threads have sometimes gotten very confusing with remembering what to call everyone, so I'm in favour of simplicity if possible.

I've no problem calling someone by their chosen pronoun, including referring to an intact male as "she". Also, no reason a doctor can't say "her" prostate when it comes to health checks and allowing her extra privacy. But a physical impossibility to do cervical smear tests on an mtf trans.

Where we've had our vigorous debates before was about "women-only spaces", which I don't think any areas of Mumsnet are, or should be.

So, imo no reason to distinguish on Mumsnet between those born as women and those who decided later.
Wrt non-virtual loos, changing rooms, refuges etc I'm sure the debate will continue.

As a scientist though: the scientific evidence dies NOT support the idea of a female brain trapped in a male body e.g. mtf biology

Totally agree - I hate the term cis

I hate that on the boards discussing trans issues, there are regularly people saying "I find cis offensive, please don't use it" and that gets ignored. It's baffling to expect respect in not using certain terms (ie he/she) but not giving it back by refusing to give up using the word cis

Yes you are missing the point Shanna. Hermione's op makes it perfectly clear what this thread is about.

? don't understand everyone's issue with gender and names. Everyone starts off female (X) then at about 6 weeks Y chromosome kicks in changing brain and body male. Unfortunately as with anything it can go slightly wrong. Why should people have a problem with a person wanting to change their body to match their brain?
There brain should dictate their gender - or am I missing something?

"Tbh all this trans talk is making me want to turn Mumsnet off for good.

I couldn't give a shit about any of it."

Agreed, although I'm not going to lie down and accept being described as a ciswoman rather than just a woman.

What a colossally tedious place Mumsnet has become these days.

I tried googling cisman and cis-man once - nothing came up. The term cis woman is a lunacy and offensive. It takes my identity away.

I posted this twitter conversation on the other trans thread. It's one I found on there when looking up the term cis. To me it shows cis is a derogatory term intended to be used as an insult

However will I explain cis people to my kids
@oddtwitterer Jesus. Give them a very stiff drink first. Because ugh.
@randomtwitterer gather round children, let me tell you a horrifying tale of cisness

@originaltwitterer Cis people are close-minded & cruel. I want to teach my kids imagination & compassion. I don't want cis people giving them the wrong idea.people are close-minded & cruel. I want to teach my kids imagination & compassion. I don't want cis people giving them the wrong idea.

So it appears that there is a specific rule against 'misgendering'. That being the case, I think it should also be not OK to label people as cis unless they are happy with the word.

Obviously this doesn't prevent anybody from self-identifying as cis if they want to.

Agree with the above.

Tbh all this trans talk is making me want to turn Mumsnet off for good.

I couldn't give a shit about any of it.

Indomitable said:
"Personally I see no problem with dropping cis and trans entirely. If you want to define yourself as 'woman', then do. Your history or biology or gender performance is neither here nor there."

Good idea. We could drop the trans and cis prefixes. It would make talking about trans issues a nightmare though.

There are a lot of people on here who want to use the terms "women and trans women". A bit like the Daily Mail referring to somebody as "The gay actor...". They don't want people to think of it as normal. I believe it's known as "othering" in some circles. A technique to marginalise a minority group.

If misgendering is 'violence' against trans people then it is also violence against people who are not trans. I view the concept of cis as being damaging and harmful to women so as far as I'm concerned it's as 'violent' as misgendering a trans person.
Trans people have protection (rightly!) but that's not to say that they are more in need of protection or more vulnerable than women.

I would be in favour of this. My objections to being called cis are pretty much what Ehric said above.

I read through the thread you linked to Olivia - MNHQ stance seems to be to make no hard and fast rules that might stifle discussion or take no account of context. I agree with this stance, however here BeccaMumsnet says, Any posts reported to us that we feel are deliberately misgendering an individual, we will delete. So it appears that there is a specific rule against 'misgendering'. That being the case, I think it should also be not OK to label people as cis unless they are happy with the word.

Obviously this doesn't prevent anybody from self-identifying as cis if they want to.

olivia

So was that a no then?

I do think when someone calls someone cis after that person has repeatedly said it doesn't describe them, it's a personal attack and should be deleted on those grounds.

I put cis into my twitter search bar.

Wow there is a whole lot of hate in this world.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

So cis is used in opposition to trans to distinguish from those born/genetically a particular sex/gender from those who have transitioned to it from a different sex/gender.

If that is the case, I've no issues at all.

If cis is used to mean one who performs in accordance with 'traditional' or culturally accepted/expected gender roles, then that's a different issue and it could be argued that some trans people are actually transitioning to a cis identity.

Personally I see no problem with dropping cis and trans entirely. If you want to define yourself as 'woman', then do. Your history or biology or gender performance is neither here nor there.

However, I'd prefer 'person' above all of it.

Sorry, my post's really out of context - I didn't realise that there was another page & was replying to something on page 2.

The thing about cis being connected to accepting gender norms etc is because to accept the concept of innate brain gender you seemingly have to accept the idea of innate gendered behaviour. Loads and loads of trans literature talks about early signs being things like boys wanting to wear dresses or play with dolls. Accepting brain gender seems to be synonymous with accepting normative gendered behaviour which many women have issues with.

But what does 'feels female' mean? How would you define that without referring to the current social identity / stereotypes of being a woman?

Having said that, I do think differentiating between female/woman and male/man can be quite useful, as sex and gender are different things

Woman = adult human female
Man = adult human male

We have the distinctions.

I would prefer that we had no restrictions on how we discuss these issues. I'd like to be able to state that X is a man because he has a penis. I'd put up with someone calling me cis in exchange although I utterly reject that term. I could simply say so in response.

Most women are not happy with the cis nonsense and I think the more this is discussed, the more women can see it for the emperor's new clothes that it is.