Isn't about time MNHQ started deleting posts that attack people's spelling and grammar?

When I started learning French it felt to me like I had missed a few years and was starting in the middle. I couldn't read or attempt to read the words and no clue how to pronounce anything.

I started German the year after and that was so much more logical in my mind.

I have noticed over the years particularly since I had children that I have problems deciphering sounds in people's speech. It's taken me all these years to work that out!

Thehumanjam, German is very logical and pronounced in a common-sense way. All this is very interesting to me: my kids struggled with French but found German much better; an (admittedly rather gimmicky) introduction to Mandarin (different alphabet) did not go down well. It shows how important individual learning styles are; and not condemning kids who just don't get it. Shame - I was out with a secondary school language teacher last night - I could've had a good discussion with her about it!

Maybe, thehumanjam. It is normal to find one foreign language easier than another, but I often think it has more to do with the individual and which language 'suits' them (or often simply which one they started first).

German is usually thought to be a difficult language, but it really depends on what aspects if a language you tend to find difficult (pronunciation, grammar, spelling etc). French is an absolute bugger for spelling, but grammatically easier than German. I always found French easier, but many find German so.

sorry - a bit off-topic! Back to the pedant vs anti-pedant battle .

Ooh I've always wanted to learn a language with a different alphabet! My capacity to do so is probably not what it once was though, sadly!

Yes, the acquisition thing is interesting. I guess maybe some dyslexic people benefit from the more structured way in which one learns a foreign language. And the fact that you start from the very beginning. Whereas obviously when you do English at school, it is assumed that you know an awful lot already because you speak it! You absorb so much as a tiny child, but if your brain isn't quite processing it in the right way, you can't really go back and start again!

I didn't know that about languages. I quite liked German but French I could not get at all and I still have no idea. When I was learning French at school I made no improvement in the 3 years that we were taught it. I'm not dyslexic, I actually did well in English but I am dyspraxic. I wonder if there is a link?

I realize BIWI didn't mean to be upsetting and I did see she was quite upset when quoted her talking about the 'lowest common denominator' and she wanted to be very clear she hadn't intended that to describe anyone. But, she and other are, I think, tending to assume that accurate SPAG are good signs of people who appreciate good language, and interesting debates, and so on.

Of course I didn't mean to be upsetting I made it very clear that I dislike sneering at people's spelling and grammar. Whether that be on a sensitive thread or not.

And nowhere have I said that I see accurate spelling and grammar as 'signs of people who appreciate good language, and interesting debates'

Please don't put words in my mouth. Again.

That's really interesting, holmes.

I do think it can be to do with acquisition. But, also, some dyslexics don't seem to have huge phonetic issues, or they present differently.

I'm fine with languages, but what I find hard is alphabets - I struggled for ages to understand how to read and write the English (Roman) alphabet, but once I'd got that down I was fine in French or whatever. But when I tried to learn Greek, which has a different alphabet, I was totally lost. Same with Russian.

It's all very odd.

I teach French and German. Usually (in my experience) dyslexic children have similar trouble with any language. However, some find German considerably easier than French because of the relatively straightforward spelling.

I have taught quite a few dyslexic students over the years who have had not too much trouble with their foreign language, in spite of major spelling problems in English. And a couple who seemed to have no dyslexic issues at all with the foreign language (usually German)! This really astonished me and made me think that occasionally dyslexia may be related to the way or circumstances in which a child picks up their native language iyswim.

Spanish is another one.

Might be - the one I know about is Italian.

Hence, perhaps, German is easier than French?

I think it is known about? Certainly I have teacher friends who know.

Incidence of dyslexia (or diagnosed dyslexia, anyway) differs in different languages, though, so that complicates things - a language where spelling is quite phonetic can be quite nice for dyslexic learners.

Thanks, that would indeed make foreign language acquisition additionally challenging, I would have thought. Schools ought really to know about that.

molly, some academics think dyslexia might be told do with problems in distinguishing between sounds. But it could also be to do with accent or early exposure.

But, senre, 'good language' and 'perfect SPAG' are different things, and they are being conflated.

I realize BIWI didn't mean to be upsetting and I did see she was quite upset when quoted her talking about the 'lowest common denominator' and she wanted to be very clear she hadn't intended that to describe anyone. But, she and other are, I think, tending to assume that accurate SPAG are good signs of people who appreciate good language, and interesting debates, and so on.

molly i have no idea. i never knew i was was saying them wrong till my kids told me...

Don't forget to look in your cuntybox.

I think you will find consistency among anti-pedantry and anti-snobbery posters. Let me just check my spreadsheet.

Does that make learning foreign languages particularly difficult?

I think BIWI had it right early on in this thread, it is not snobbish to appreciate good language. I have changed my views on some things and learned a lot from MN and would like to think that others may learn too although expressing it well comes down to kindness and respect.
For example: In real life, if I mispronounced something, I would appreciate someone saying tactfully "by the way, did you know this is usually pronounced..." whereas I'm fairly sure I would be offended by "Oy thicko, it's..." and while online it is hard to get kindness across I do think standards should matter.

It is also worth pointing out that, just as there are some obnoxious pedants, there are also some posters who are just as obnoxious in their anti-pedant views. I remember, years back, seeing a post from a woman asking advice as she just could not get a job; the poster who suggested she may want to get applications checked to avoid spelling errors as there were some in her posts got savaged despite the fact it was reasonable advice, delivered politely

I'm amazed that people get so steamed up about pedantry when snobbery like the napkin/serviette, toilet/loo and "I'd be appalled if my child said pardon instead of what" stuff goes on all the time on here.

Ghostspirit, that's incredibly interesting, that v/th/f all sound the same to you - is that a common feature of dyslexia, please? Dd's BFF is dyslexic.

name - unfortunately, no, she does it correctly. I don't think I've ever caught her out in a grammar slip.

It was incredibly embarrassing as a child, believe me.

How arrogant of you to think it's your job to pull up adults on their spelling

No more arrogant than thinking it's your job to decide which posts should be deleted by MNHQ.

She also corrects people on 'who' and 'whom'.

Correctly? The vast majority of people who use "whom" do it at random, as though it's a posh way to say "who".

i would be caught out there to holmessweet when i say, v/th/f they all sound the same. my kids keep saying mum say very to take the piss. even the 4 year olds from next door have noticed it